Thoughts on 4 lights by Foursevens/Fenix

I currently own these four lights:




From left to right: Foursevens Maelstrom MM-X, Fenix PD-32, Foursevens QT2L-X, Klarus Mi-X6 AU

Everyone has different needs when it comes to lights, and I'm no exception. I'm losing central vision, and need a light on me wherever I go, even at home. When asleep, I keep a light within reach. The Klarus Mi-X6 (gold plated stainless) is the light I would have trouble living without, because it's so small and easy to use in company. I often pull out my light to see what everyone else can see perfectly well, and the fact that it's a very nice looking gold plated novelty makes it go over better in many cases. Instead of being annoyed, people ask if they can see it, or use it to read their menus. Credit for my Mi-X6 belongs to Foursevens, who designed this light as the Preon Revo, before Klarus ripped it off.

Even though I got the Foursevens MM-X with burst mode only yesterday, I already know this is the light I'd most hate to part with next. Given that I already have a great little EDC light in my pocket (the Mi-X6), if I need a bigger light, there's little chance I'd want to stop at either the tiny but powerful Foursevens QT2L-X with burst mode or the older Fenix PD-32 (with the XP-G LED, rather than the newer XP-G2). All three are fantastic lights, but the MM-X throws better and brighter, and is usable at higher power for longer. It's a simple matter of physics: that large lens helps it throw slightly better than the PD-32 even with the larger LM-L2, and with that large heat sink on the head, it can run at higher power without getting too hot. It also has a burst mode that is only matched by the small QT2L-X, but the QT2L-X gets hot in seconds, while the burst mode on the MM-X is usable for the full minute.

When carrying one of these three larger lights, I want one of the following, or I'd just use the Mi-X6:

• brighter beam for a short time (< 1 minute)
• brighter beam for a long time (> 5 minutes)
• longer distance (throw)
• longer runtime
• still may care about light and small, and easy to carry
• backpacking friendly

The larger lights do better in short high-output burst mode. All four have short term high modes that heat up the light too much, and longer term lower brightness modes that don't get too hot. The high mode on the small QT2L-X takes only seconds, while the others about a minute. The difference is that the MM-X puts out around 900 lumens while the PD-32 is about 300 lumens, and the Mi-X6 is about 50 lumens during that minute. The QT2L-X heats up in seconds because it's so small, yet it puts out about 870 lumens, nearly matching the MM-X. It's definitely a "pocket rocket". The MM-X wins this category, slightly edging out the QT2L-X.

Then there's the beam I can use without worrying about too much heat. With the Mi-X6, it's medium mode, which maybe is 10 or 15 lumens. The QT2L-X can do it's medium low, at about 55 lumens, the PD-32 can do it-s medium high at about 100 lumens, and the MM-X can do it's medium high at about 300 lumens. The MM-X wins this category by a mile.

Long distance throw is important to me sometimes, like when I'm looking for one of our cats in the woods, or trying to figure out what huge animal is making all that noise. Funny story, though not at the time... I was on a backpacking trip in Yosemite with one of those old "disposable" lights, when we heard a bear eating all our food (8 weeks worth - 4 guys with 2 weeks left on the trip). We were not happy campers. Finally, one of my friends declared, "We have to go get our food back, or our trip will be ruined!" So we climbed out of our tents and I led us up the trail to the very noisy bear. Just as we approached it, my stupid flashlight went dead! A couple seconds later, the bear stood on his hind legs with his arms in the air, and I will never know if the bear roared, because we could not hear over our own screaming. My first thought was that running might make the bear attack, so I turned to ask my friends if we should hold our ground. They were already gone! I ran cross country in high school. I beat them to the lake. As they say, when you **** off a bear, it's not how fast you run that will save you but how fast you run compared to your friends

The reason I felt I needed the MM-X is that the QT2L-X throws about as well as my tiny AAA Mi-X6 light. It has a floody orange-peel reflector, which is identical in diameter to the PD-32's, but with that huge XM-L2 LED, it throws like a little girl. When used at the same brightness levels, the beam from the QT2L-X looks nearly identical to the Mi-X6. I knew the first time I turned on the QT2L-X that it could not replace my old PD-32, which isn't know as a monster thrower, but I feel it throws pretty well for my needs. That's when I realized I needed the MM-X. With double the diameter head vs the PD-32, it makes only a slightly smaller center spot, because of the large XM-L2 LED vs the PD-32's tiny XP-G. Still, the MM-X wins at focusing a tight beam (throw), but not by much. The fact is that being brighter also helps you see longer distances. If I had to have one of these lights to go searching for a bear, it would be the MM-X, by a mile!



The QT2L-X is on high burst-mode on the left, and the MM-X is on high burst mode on the right.

You can't tell from the picture, but the flood of both lights is almost identical in brightness, indicating that the LEDs are putting out about the same amount of light. The MM-X is simply more concentrated, due to it's larger reflector.



The PD-32 on max is on the left, and the MM-X on max-burst on the right.

The PD-32 has a very slightly larger center spot, but not enough to make much difference. The real difference is the higher brightness of the MM-X.

Next comes runtime. When trying to use a light at a comfortable light level while saving battery power, I use a level that is about the same as the high mode on the Mi-X6. That would kill the Mi-X6 is about half an hour, but all these other lights last for hours and hours at that level. They can all run on identical 2xCR123A batteries and are about equally efficient. The PD-32 and MM-X can use my larger rechargeable NCR-18650A batteries, but two non-recharable CR123A's last about as long. For battery conservation mode, these lights tie on runtime.

To differentiate which light is better in my typical medium-low power mode, other factors need to be taken into account. Throw doesn't matter much at this light level. The MM-X is maybe twice as heavy as the smaller QT2L-X, but once in my hand, they all seem very light. The biggest difference is probably which is easier to carry when not in my hand. The QT2L-X is so small, I just drop it in my pocket. The PD-32 has a very small holster that I put on my belt and hardly notice. The MM-X holster is huge, and there's no way I'm wearing that thing. Instead, I clip it to my belt. The reason I can clip the MM-X to my nice leather belt without worrying about damaging my belt is that it has a very smooth flat aluminum surface that the clip presses my belt against, so I don't tear it up. The clip on the MM-X and QT2L-X are fixed in position, while the inferior clip on the PD-32 can rotate around, so I never know if it's facing rough knurl or the smoother flat part. So, for medium-low mode, which I use most, the QT2L-X wins, by a little.

For backpacking, the QT2L-X is perfect. I prefer to have a brighter light that last longer than my Mi-X6 while backpacking, but every ounce of weight counts. The QT2L-X is a perfect combination of light and small, while lasting a long time on medium-low brightness, and as a bonus it has that ultra-bright turbo mode in case I feel I need it. I'd prefer the MM-X for a bear encounter, but since I don't plan to have those, the QT2L-X is what I'd pack.

In conclusion, I have good reasons to keep the Foursevens lights (I include the Mi-X6 as a Foursevens light, even though it's sold by Klarus), but no good reason to keep the PD-32. The PD-32 is a fantastic light, but I can find no reason to prefer it in any scenerio, so I'm going to put it in the "family" light drawer, where the kids will have fun with it until they lose it.

Some final comments on pricing and dealing with American vs Chinese companies... Of the lights I've bought other than MagLite, only Foursevens so far is an American company. They are slightly more expensive, but worth it, IMO. I've recently had a nightmarish experience dealing with Lenovo over a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Touch laptop that I paid $1,900 for. Some Chinese companies will knowingly sell you a lemon and refuse to fix it, regardless of what support contract you paid for. They'll simply waste your time until you go away, rather than fix or replace a defective product. Lenovo is just such a company. Chinese companies like Eagle Tac pretend to be American, and Klarus sells stolen designs. Fenix has some positive customer support stories out there, so kudos to Fenix! If you do buy from a Chinese company, I recommend buying through Amazon, because they will quickly get your money back if you have any problems. Personally, I prefer to deal with companies I can respect.

Very interesting post but as far as I know Eagltac are an Amercan company based in Washington state and don't even inflate their lumens: I think there are around enough reviews to even prove that. They just provide both LED lumens and ANSI lumens, people can't tell the difference and then say they lie. From what I have seen on their website, they are one of the brands that provide most technical information on their lights which to me is not exactly lying about anything.

Fenix, I've dealt with their customer service a couple of times and it was excellent, fast, and responsive. The review you linked is one man one experience, it's not even clear where it was returned if to Fenix and Amazon!

Not sure what you are saying makes sense as it is based on just two posts on Amazon: hardly enough contributions to draw a conclusion that they'll give you a run around or inflate the lumens! I have to give it to you though: at least you posted the links that explain what your opinion is coming from!

Are you sure Eagletac is American? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to believe they're a reputable company. If they are American, why do they only deal with technical problems in Hong Kong? Why on their about page don't they even state the CEO's full name, and why don't they have a US phone number on their contact page? Why do all their lights ship from Hong Kong instead of Washington? Why do these guys seem to think they're based in Hong Kong, and why do they allow US distributors to provide bad service? I think Eagletac is practicing a particularly low form of lying: they are pretending to be American, but are in fact based in China. Even their name is a lie, using our national symbol in their name.

I am glad to hear you had good support directly from Fenix. I googled and found another positive customer service story for Fenix, so I changed my original negative comment above about them to a positive one. You were right, one bad Amazon review isn't proof. I've very much enjoyed my PD-32, so much that when I bought it, I also bought one for my son. I'll put Fenix back on my personal approved vendor list.

When I bought my PD-32s, I had to buy batteries, and I wound up falling for the Chinese lairs who sell UltraFire. They print "3000mAh" in a large font, right on the battery, but these are 1500mAh batteries. After that disappointment, I bought two protected Panasonic NCR 18650A 3000mAh batteries, and these things are awesome! However, they don't work in PD-32s, because they expose too much of the tail portion and are so long that the tail cap shorts out, and the light is always on. With my Foursevens MM-X, I finally have a light that works with my high-end 18650s. In fact, when I first tried out the MM-X (day before yesterday), I put in the UltraFires and was disappointed to see that the light was not nearly as bright on burst mode as claimed. Fortunately, Foursevens ships batteries with the light, and when I put them in, it lit up big time. Then I remembered my old Panasonic batteries that I couldn't use with the PD-32s, and they worked great, even though I hadn't charged them for a year. If you do buy NCR18650A's for your MM-X, remember to get the battery protector circuit, which adds both protection and a button on top. The MM-X does seem to work with the unprotected NCR 18650A's, though. I'm not sure if that's a good idea...

waywardgeek said:

I currently own these four lights:

From left to right: Foursevens Maelstrom MM-X, Fenix PD-32, Foursevens QT2L-X, Klarus Mi-X6 AU

Everyone has different needs when it comes to lights, and I'm no exception. I'm losing central vision, and need a light on me wherever I go, even at home. When asleep, I keep a light within reach. The Klarus Mi-X6 (gold plated stainless) is the light I would have trouble living without, because it's so small and easy to use in company. I often pull out my light to see what everyone else can see perfectly well, and the fact that it's a very nice looking gold plated novelty makes it go over better in many cases. Instead of being annoyed, people ask if they can see it, or use it to read their menus. Credit for my Mi-X6 belongs to Foursevens, who designed this light as the Preon Revo, before Klarus ripped it off.

Even though I got the Foursevens MM-X with burst mode only yesterday, I already know this is the light I'd most hate to part with next. Given that I already have a great little EDC light in my pocket (the Mi-X6), if I need a bigger light, there's little chance I'd want to stop at either the tiny but powerful Foursevens QT2L-X with burst mode or the older Fenix PD-32 (with the XP-G LED, rather than the newer XP-G2). All three are fantastic lights, but the MM-X throws better and brighter, and is usable at higher power for longer. It's a simple matter of physics: that large lens helps it throw slightly better than the PD-32 even with the larger LM-L2, and with that large heat sink on the head, it can run at higher power without getting too hot. It also has a burst mode that is only matched by the small QT2L-X, but the QT2L-X gets hot in seconds, while the burst mode on the MM-X is usable for the full minute.

When carrying one of these three larger lights, I want one of the following, or I'd just use the Mi-X6:

• brighter beam for a short time (< 1 minute)
• brighter beam for a long time (> 5 minutes)
• longer distance (throw)
• longer runtime
• still may care about light and small, and easy to carry
• backpacking friendly

The larger lights do better in short high-output burst mode. All four have short term high modes that heat up the light too much, and longer term lower brightness modes that don't get too hot. The high mode on the small QT2L-X takes only seconds, while the others about a minute. The difference is that the MM-X puts out around 900 lumens while the PD-32 is about 300 lumens, and the Mi-X6 is about 50 lumens during that minute. The QT2L-X heats up in seconds because it's so small, yet it puts out about 870 lumens, nearly matching the MM-X. It's definitely a "pocket rocket". The MM-X wins this category, slightly edging out the QT2L-X.

Then there's the beam I can use without worrying about too much heat. With the Mi-X6, it's medium mode, which maybe is 10 or 15 lumens. The QT2L-X can do it's medium low, at about 55 lumens, the PD-32 can do it-s medium high at about 100 lumens, and the MM-X can do it's medium high at about 300 lumens. The MM-X wins this category by a mile.

Long distance throw is important to me sometimes, like when I'm looking for one of our cats in the woods, or trying to figure out what huge animal is making all that noise. Funny story, though not at the time... I was on a backpacking trip in Yosemite with one of those old "disposable" lights, when we heard a bear eating all our food (8 weeks worth - 4 guys with 2 weeks left on the trip). We were not happy campers. Finally, one of my friends declared, "We have to go get our food back, or our trip will be ruined!" So we climbed out of our tents and I led us up the trail to the very noisy bear. Just as we approached it, my stupid flashlight went dead! A couple seconds later, the bear stood on his hind legs with his arms in the air, and I will never know if the bear roared, because we could not hear over our own screaming. My first thought was that running might make the bear attack, so I turned to ask my friends if we should hold our ground. They were already gone! I ran cross country in high school. I beat them to the lake. As they say, when you **** off a bear, it's not how fast you run that will save you but how fast you run compared to your friends

The reason I felt I needed the MM-X is that the QT2L-X throws about as well as my tiny AAA Mi-X6 light. It has a floody orange-peel reflector, which is identical in diameter to the PD-32's, but with that huge XM-L2 LED, it throws like a little girl. When used at the same brightness levels, the beam from the QT2L-X looks nearly identical to the Mi-X6. I knew the first time I turned on the QT2L-X that it could not replace my old PD-32, which isn't know as a monster thrower, but I feel it throws pretty well for my needs. That's when I realized I needed the MM-X. With double the diameter head vs the PD-32, it makes only a slightly smaller center spot, because of the large XM-L2 LED vs the PD-32's tiny XP-G. Still, the MM-X wins at focusing a tight beam (throw), but not by much. The fact is that being brighter also helps you see longer distances. If I had to have one of these lights to go searching for a bear, it would be the MM-X, by a mile!

The QT2L-X is on high burst-mode on the left, and the MM-X is on high burst mode on the right.

You can't tell from the picture, but the flood of both lights is almost identical in brightness, indicating that the LEDs are putting out about the same amount of light. The MM-X is simply more concentrated, due to it's larger reflector.

The PD-32 on max is on the left, and the MM-X on max-burst on the right.

The PD-32 has a very slightly larger center spot, but not enough to make much difference. The real difference is the higher brightness of the MM-X.

Next comes runtime. When trying to use a light at a comfortable light level while saving battery power, I use a level that is about the same as the high mode on the Mi-X6. That would kill the Mi-X6 is about half an hour, but all these other lights last for hours and hours at that level. They can all run on identical 2xCR123A batteries and are about equally efficient. The PD-32 and MM-X can use my larger rechargeable NCR-18650A batteries, the same ones rumored to power the Tesla Model S, but two non-recharable CR123A's last about as long. For battery conservation mode, these lights tie on runtime.

To differentiate which light is better in my typical medium-low power mode, other factors need to be taken into account. Throw doesn't matter much at this light level. The MM-X is maybe twice as heavy as the smaller QT2L-X, but once in my hand, they all seem very light. The biggest difference is probably which is easier to carry when not in my hand. The QT2L-X is so small, I just drop it in my pocket. The PD-32 has a very small holster that I put on my belt and hardly notice. The MM-X holster is huge, and there's no way I'm wearing that thing. Instead, I clip it to my belt. The reason I can clip the MM-X to my nice leather belt without worrying about damaging my belt is that it has a very smooth flat aluminum surface that the clip presses my belt against, so I don't tear it up. The clip on the MM-X and QT2L-X are fixed in position, while the inferior clip on the PD-32 can rotate around, so I never know if it's facing rough knurl or the smoother flat part. So, for medium-low mode, which I use most, the QT2L-X wins, by a little.

For backpacking, the QT2L-X is perfect. I prefer to have a brighter light that last longer than my Mi-X6 while backpacking, but every ounce of weight counts. The QT2L-X is a perfect combination of light and small, while lasting a long time on medium-low brightness, and as a bonus it has that ultra-bright turbo mode in case I feel I need it. I'd prefer the MM-X for a bear encounter, but since I don't plan to have those, the QT2L-X is what I'd pack.

In conclusion, I have good reasons to keep the Foursevens lights (I include the Mi-X6 as a Foursevens light, even though it's sold by Klarus), but no good reason to keep the PD-32. The PD-32 is a fantastic light, but I can find no reason to prefer it in any scenerio, so I'm going to put it in the "family" light drawer, where the kids will have fun with it until they lose it.

Some final comments on pricing and dealing with American vs Chinese companies... Of the lights I've bought other than MagLite, only Foursevens so far is an American company. They are slightly more expensive, but worth it, IMO. I've recently had a nightmarish experience dealing with Lenovo over a Thinkpad Carbon X1 Touch laptop that I paid $1,900 for. Some Chinese companies will knowingly sell you a lemon and refuse to fix it, regardless of what support contract you paid for. They'll simply waste your time until you go away, rather than fix or replace a defective product. Lenovo is just such a company. Chinese companies like Eagle Tac inflate lumen claims, Klarus sells stolen designs, and even Fenix gives customers the run-around. If you do buy from a Chinese company, I recommend buying through Amazon, because they will quickly get your money back if you have any problems. Personally, I prefer to deal with companies I can respect.

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Eagletac and Armytac state LED lumens, that's why their numbers seem inflated.
But Eagletac also states ANSI lumens, and these numbers are the opposite of inflated.
Check selfbuilt reviews, i mean study them, and you'll learn about it.

I test my lights with a light meter and stopwatch and find Eagletacs (D25 series anyways) right along side Quarks with OTF spec sheet accuracy and conservatism - I use either to calibrate my light meter. However, I find ET's warranty terms misleading and distasteful - their "flashlights" are covered for 10yrs but the "electronics" in the light are only covered for 1yr (I checked with the company). Never owned a Fenix - guess I'm a big fan of wide-voltage tolerance and sub-lumen modes. I would love to get a hold of an LD12 to see if it can meet its ~300 lumen-hours (across all modes) spec sheet efficiency claims on a AA cell - best I've seen so far is in the 150-200 lumen-hour range per AA cell (ie, using a "conservative" lumen scale that Eagletac, Foursevens, and supposedly(?) Fenix, seem to employ).

Foursevens sees most of my friends-and-family recommendation and gift business, by far. The long warranty and excellent US-based customer service is important to me for something I will recommending or gifting to others - especially non-flashaholics. Quarks (low voltage heads) are also my personal favorite for their extreme versatility (battery chems, Lego configs, sub-lumen lows, hundreds hrs runtime), but they do have their quirks (cumbersome UIs, tint, threads, risk of pre-flash). They do seem very durable though....they get the most abuse in my collection and I haven't been able to break one yet. I'm not a fan of the Minis though.... specs are significantly exaggerated on lumens and runtime (from my tests).

waywardgeek said:

Some final comments on pricing and dealing with American vs Chinese companies...

Click to expand...

It's hard to generalize about this.... there is another American-owned/Chinese-manufactured company, that makes my skin crawl with its spec sheet exaggeration (at least compared to the above mentioned companies) and lack of product and customer support - however, they make a very good product at a fair price, so it balances out and just depends upon each individual's priorities.

They aren't really stealing designs. They are all made in the same factory by the same people. At least that's what I believe until someone can PROVE me wrong.

waywardgeek said:

Are you sure Eagletac is American? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to believe they're a reputable company. If they are American, why do they only deal with technical problems in Hong Kong? Why on their about page don't they even state the CEO's full name, and why don't they have a US phone number on their contact page? Why do all their lights ship from Hong Kong instead of Washington? Why do these guys seem to think they're based in Hong Kong, and why do they allow US distributors to provide bad service? I think Eagletac is practicing a particularly low form of lying: they are pretending to be American, but are in fact based in China. Even their name is a lie, using our national symbol in their name.

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No I'm not sure at all that EagleTac are an American company but that's what I have read in most of the threads I've come across here on CPF.
As for the Eagle, it is a symbol used by tribes, empires, nations, armies, and probably even companies long before the first Europeans landed on the shores of today's Americas so I'm not sure I'd consider it a lie.

That said, I find it very strange too that you have to ship your light to Honk Kong for servicing. That could easily be explained that they only have head-quarters, and maybe some development, in the US. Even so I find it disappointing that you buy a product in the US and have to ship it to Asia to be serviced, much more so if still within warranty: they should offer servicing from their US offices - if they want to get their products actually serviced in Honk Kong they could still handle the shipping to and from Asia internally rather than leaving it to their customers.

I also checked on the website and I couldn't find a US number on their pages either. That may not prove that they are an American company but not having a phone number you can call is, in my personal opinion, bad customer support. There is a US address on their website so I wonder if anybody from CPF has ever visited their offices.

reppans said:

It's hard to generalize about this.... there is another American-owned/Chinese-manufactured company, that makes my skin crawl with its spec sheet exaggeration (at least compared to the above mentioned companies) and lack of product and customer support - however, they make a very good product at a fair price, so it balances out and just depends upon each individual's priorities.

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Thanks for the good info. I did some more googling after some feedback on this thread, and I changed my negative comment about Fenix support to a positive one, and changed my comment about Eagletac from one about lumen inflation to a comment about pretending to be a US based company when they aren't. I don't know the details of why Klarus wound up with the Preon Revo design, but I figure I can't buy from them, either, though I'm not willing to give up my Mi-X6. In any case, all my Fenix and Foursevens lights are excellent, and I have no complaints.

Brasso said:

They aren't really stealing designs. They are all made in the same factory by the same people. At least that's what I believe until someone can PROVE me wrong.

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They are not all made in the same factory.

For instance, 4sevens has worked with several manufacturers (who have risen to prominence over the years) in order to make various lights. Quark and Fenix are not made in the same place.

Finally, if you are contracted to manufacture something FOR someone, per their specifications, and then you decide to use their designs to manufacture your own brand of things, that is in fact stealing their designs. Using the knowledge you gain from building to someone else's specs to design your own brand of things, however, is not.

If anyone knows for sure whether or not Klarus illegally stole the Preon Revo design from Foursevens to build the Mi-X6, I'd like to know. I edited my old Klarus Mi-X6 review to warn users away from the Mi-X6, and I don't want to do that unfairly. I've read post #20 on this thread, which leads me to believe Klarus is not a company I can recommend.

People knowing for sure might not still prove something happened. That said, as a buyer I'm free to have my own opinions and I take into account information shared respectfully by reputed members before I decide to buy something: when I was considering buying Mi10 I decided to scrap it!

Going back to the topic, I reread your initial post as yesterday I was in a rush: very intersting details and well made too. I hope you get to buy new lights, budget permitting , and keep posting your experiences!

Yeah... well... after that experience with my light going dead and the bear scaring the heck out of me when I was young, and now losing central vision and watching the world go dark, I guess I'll be buying a lot of lights. It doesn't take a psychologist to figure out why. It's kind of a compulsion now. I appreciate your posts, and I certainly will chime in next time I have anything to report.