UUUUUUGGGGGGGGGG FENIX QUESTION

Dang Fenix, keep it simple!!! Pd 31, Pd 32, Pd 33 and on and on. There are way too many pd's with same number but this and that added on. Anyway, after an HOUR of freaking research, and understanding NO ONE can produce the type light for its presentations, i give up!!! Review after review I read. Fenix sites galore. Every specification known to man EXCEPT to me, the MOST important one. What kind of freaking light color is it??. This should be on EVERY piece of literature and it is not. Is the new PD35 a cool white, a bright white, a neutral white.... I should be able to find this information without reading through pages and pages of discusions... Amazing to me after oodles of research this one piece of info is left out,of every review on the web and every piece of literature I have read. So please,help me.

I have the e50 which I know is neutral. Yuck. I like my 4-pd 32 with what is either a cool white or a bright white. Wanted an e50 with same shade as my pd32's. No such luck. HOPING the pd35 at 840 is same shade as pd 32's. ANYONE know if it is? Thanks guys and gals, any input be nice. I looked at pics of it in the woods but looks yellow to me....want white.

Cool white is always the default; if nothing says "warm" or "neutral", then you're getting a cool tint.

If you look carefully at the LED specification the tint is often specified to some degree in the form of a BIN. For instance a CREE XM-L2-U3 specifies the U3 bin which you can look up on a BIN chart and get a good approximation of the LED tint.

But each BIN can contain from one dozen to many dozen distinguishable shades. The driver type and each driver level can also impact tint. The reflector, lens, and coatings can also impact tint.

So specifying tint is not as easy as it sounds and it would be very expensive to test and specify the exact color temperature of each light at each level or even the ranges for a given production batch based on a sampling (which is how ANSI lumens are done).

That said, we frequently do have BIN and there are charts that map BINs into broader categories like cool, neutral, warm etc. Even then I have lights the manufacturer specified as "cool white" (and are specified as being from a cool white bin) that to me clearly look warmer than other lights I have specified as Neutral (and are specified as a neutral bin).

So to some extent it's a bit of a lottery based on the manufacturing variances and our individual sensitivities and perceptions of colors.

Hope this helps as now you should be able to at least generalized on BIN for any quality manufacturer as they typically specify BIN.

Fenix mostly does cool white.

The PD32UE is the only NW tint light that i know of, though there may be others.

Love my PD32UE!!!

Seriously, Fenix provides more info than many other companies.

emitter, lumen, throw, intensity, run time

I've seen high end companies that don't even provide that info. You get things like: Output = 100%, 35%, 5%. . . 5% of what??? Or 50ma, 250ma, 700ma. . . OK. . What does that translate to in lumens???

Still.....how hard is it to say "cool white" for its description??? Or "neutral light" I mean, come on, everyone wants to know this!!! I even saw threads on here where people were asking WHAT KIND IS IT???


This is the kind of reply that doesn't help the AVERAGE consumer. Only people of a very advanced knowledge of flashlights. I understood it.....but isnt it easier to just say cool white beam under description? (No offense Jim, I always appreciate replies "If you look carefully at the LED specification the tint is often specified to some degree in the form of a BIN. For instance a CREE XM-L2-U3 specifies the U3 bin which you can look up on a BIN chart and get a good approximation of the LED tint. "

Moved to LED Flashlights - Norm

What to post in the General Flashlight Discussion Sub Fourum.

cheaperrooter said:

Dang Fenix, keep it simple!!! Pd 31, Pd 32, Pd 33 and on and on. There are way too many pd's with same number but this and that added on. Anyway, after an HOUR of freaking research, and understanding NO ONE can produce the type light for its presentations, i give up!!! Review after review I read. Fenix sites galore. Every specification known to man EXCEPT to me, the MOST important one. What kind of freaking light color is it??. This should be on EVERY piece of literature and it is not. Is the new PD35 a cool white, a bright white, a neutral white.... I should be able to find this information without reading through pages and pages of discusions... Amazing to me after oodles of research this one piece of info is left out,of every review on the web and every piece of literature I have read. So please,help me.

I have the e50 which I know is neutral. Yuck. I like my 4-pd 32 with what is either a cool white or a bright white. Wanted an e50 with same shade as my pd32's. No such luck. HOPING the pd35 at 840 is same shade as pd 32's. ANYONE know if it is? Thanks guys and gals, any input be nice. I looked at pics of it in the woods but looks yellow to me....want white.

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Really? You don't like the tint on the Fenix E50? It uses a neutral/(slightly "warm) T6 xm-l emitter. Try using it outside in the pitch black and you will really appreciate what a more neutral tint does. In a forest or woods everything has so much more depth and accurate color. And like others are saying cool white and "bright white" are the same thing; probably around 6500k or higher. I know the lights can be confusing if you don't have many to really understand what the differences of emitter sizes/tints/outputs/reflectors are, but you will find out soon which really helps with making informed light purchases. If an E50 is "too yellow" to you go for something like a Fenix TK22. It has a very nice beam because of the micro textured reflector and using the new xm-l2 should give a slightly warmer than cool white tint. On it's max output it should have a beam profile and brightness similar to the E50 too. The E50 is specifically specified as a neutral tinted emitter light. Cool white is what sells the most by far so unless specified as neutral or warm (closer to 3500k) you can almost be sure it's cool white.

cheaperrooter said:

Still.....how hard is it to say "cool white" for its description??? Or "neutral light" I mean, come on, everyone wants to know this!!! I even saw threads on here where people were asking WHAT KIND IS IT???


This is the kind of reply that doesn't help the AVERAGE consumer. Only people of a very advanced knowledge of flashlights. I understood it.....but isnt it easier to just say cool white beam under description? (No offense Jim, I always appreciate replies "If you look carefully at the LED specification the tint is often specified to some degree in the form of a BIN. For instance a CREE XM-L2-U3 specifies the U3 bin which you can look up on a BIN chart and get a good approximation of the LED tint. "

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No worries. I agree that having manufacturers specify cool / neutral / warm isn't too much to ask. But as others have said - cool is the default the vast majority of the time because it generates the most lumens and lumens sell. You'll typically see neutral or warm in the product description if it's not cool.

And maybe you you don't consider yourself an average buyer, but now that you have the secret code all you have to do is look at the full LED designation on a light and you can easily tell the general tint.

Absolutely. I learned a lot from your post....except my answer LMBO!!!! No, seriously, your post got saved and printed, for future reference, after all, I now own 4 PD32's, 2 E50's and now I just ordered 2- PD35...which I am MOST excited about, so it was nice to know HOW to read in between the lines. Not that I should HAVE to mind you. Its the E50 I WANTED IN COOL WHITE!!!!! The EU was a neutral like my E50 SO WAS MOST dissapointed. So couldn't be happier I got my cool white again in the PD35. But come on, really, this is what I found out below about my light over and over again, EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN INCLUDING INFO I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT BUT NOTHING ABOUT THE DANG COOL OR NEUTRAL. I mean seeing as how they JUST came out with EU in NEUTRAL, wasn't far off to think they would do it again in the PD, ya know?

• • Cree XM-L2 (U2) LED with a lifespan of 50,000 hours
  • Uses one 18650 rechargeable battery (Li-ion) or two 3V CR123A batteries (Lithium)
  • Output mode / Runtime:
  Turbo: 850 lumens / 1h 15min
  High: 450 lumens / 2h 30min
  Mid: 170 lumens / 7h 45min
  Low: 45 lumens / 29h
  Eco: 10 lumens / 140h
  Strobe: 850 lumens
  • Dimensions and Weight:
  Length: 5.1" / 130mm
  Diameter: 1.0" / 25.4mm
  Head Diameter: 1.0" / 25.4mm
  Weight: 3.1oz / 87gm
  • Digitally regulated output - maintains constant brightness
  • Reverse polarity protection, to protect from improper battery installation
  • Over heat protection to avoid high-temperature of the surface
  • Anti-roll, slip-resistant body design
  • Tactical tail switch with momentary-on function
  • Side switch in the head
  • Made of durable aircraft-grade aluminum
  • Premium Type III hard-anodized anti-abrasive finish
  • Toughened ultra-clear glass lens with anti-reflective coating
  
  Martin, don't like the neutral, but remember, I am a plumber that uses it MOSTLY for crawling around under houses. I want bright, light up the whole place white light. Not really interested in the colors of dead rat bones laying around.

With exception to rhe pd32UE(because I think it ws not really atated as a neutral), all lights that come out are always cool white. But just because they are cook white doesnt mean that 2 same light will look the design. The tint lottery also plays a prt here. Some will be tinted a little bit green, or yellow, or pink, and sometimes purple. But all of them are actually cool white. That's what most if not all manufacturers do. And then they will only state that this light is a neutral or highcri when it deviates from the norm which is cool white.

ico said:

With exception to rhe pd32UE(because I think it ws not really atated as a neutral),

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From the Fenix Website

Color rendition and penetration power are also enhanced by the utilization of the latest Cree XM-L (T6) neutral white LED.

http://www.fenixlight.com/ProductMore.aspx?id=4&tid=9&cid=1#.UkmsJBBDWkU

Well got my PD35 today....and I have to say....its awesome....however, it is NOT as cool a white as the PD32, but MUCH better than the E50. Still....I wish it were the exact same. Can anyone tell me what 840 compared to 315 is in the real world. I know that 2 1/2 times more lumens does NOT mean its 2 1/2 times brighter. But what is it? 75% birghter? 100%? Just curious how that works....without getting too comlivated for me, like Lumens for Lummies....

cheaperrooter said:

Can anyone tell me what 840 compared to 315 is in the real world. I know that 2 1/2 times more lumens does NOT mean its 2 1/2 times brighter. But what is it?

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It would look like the difference between a medium and a high mode on a flashlight; a step up that's clearly brighter under all circumstances.

Technically speaking, there is no "twice" brighter or a "percentage brighter" by the eye, just as there's no percentage louder or quieter by the ear - imagine if someone asked you to turn up the volume on a stereo by exactly 30% and the confusion that would ensue. There is only the amount of difference that is noticeable from one example to the next; in sound, this is the decibel. In light, it's about 10%. You can just barely tell the difference between 10 and 11 lumens, as you can barely tell the difference between 800 and 880 lumens.

Ok, makes sense. But still....with high end measuring equipment.....there's HAS to be a general guideline. I mean a 200 amp stereo compared to a 400 amp stereo is LOUDER, right? So we know that 840 compared to 315 is BRIGHTER, right? So GENERALLY speaking, how MUCH brighter is it? There has to be some kind of way to find that out....I would think....course I dont know....or I would be here asking Something cool I just did. Maybe others already do it, but if not, I'll share. Fumbling around at night when you can't see anything, it's hard sometimes to find the dang sideswitch. It just is. Not a major problem...but a slight problem. So just now I lined up the belt clip like an arrow pointing to the side switch and now its soooo easy to take my thumb and land right on the switch. Hope that helps others too.

cheaperrooter said:

But still....with high end measuring equipment.....there's HAS to be a general guideline. I mean a 200 amp stereo compared to a 400 amp stereo is LOUDER, right? So we know that 840 compared to 315 is BRIGHTER, right? So GENERALLY speaking, how MUCH brighter is it?

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Right, measuring equipment will give you a specific number, but your senses aren't set up to measure specific differences in sensations. If I played two tones, one at exactly twice the amplification of the other, and asked a group of people what percentage the difference is in volume, the responses would be all over the place, probably from 50-150%. It's the same thing with light. What would exactly 100% more light over 315 lumens look like? If you could choose your answer from a series of pictures of beam shots where the output steadily increased, you could just guess and pick one, but there's no way to tell by the eye. I could say "it looks roughly a half time brighter," but no one would agree on what specifically that means.

My off-the-cuff subjective response to 315 versus 840 lumens is that the difference would look about 50% brighter, but how everyone pictures that in their head will be varied and wide-ranging..

The 315 version is a very good light. Comparing my Klarus xt2c 470 version to the pd32 315 version, the pd32 looks about the same in terms of spill at 40 yards, but the hotspot is a little brighter in the pd32. The spill will throw a bit further in the xt2c, but the throw is better in the pd32.
The Pd35 will have a little larger hotspot than the 32, but I don't thinks its enough light to wash the 32's hotspot out. The spill is significantly brighter in the 35 (2x). I'm on the fence a out the 340 version of the 32 versus the 35 because I really like the throw/spill ratio of the 32 versus the 35 which throw pretty good but is biased to spill.

"My off-the-cuff subjective response to 315 versus 840 lumens is that the difference would look about 50% brighter"

Your off the cuff guess is better than mine, I assure you. So thanks!!! But it would seem there is way too much mystery surrounding this subject....when there doesn't have to be. This info is vital to me, as it helps decide on a purchase. I can only speculate at best what the incresed lumens translate to in the real world....when I shouldn't HAVE to speculate. I still say that Fenix, as others, have a long way to come. They do, I am sure, have some pretty precise equipment that could just tell us those kinds of things. Can't they just say "The new Fenix PD35 with 840 lumens, 67% brighter then the previous PD32" Am I asking too much here? That way, I can decide if its worth buying 2 PD35's when I own 4-PD32's. Is it worth it to me. I mean, have you EVER seen this in other areas of life? "The new Ford Mustang, puts out subjectively more horsepower than the Camero Z28....." No, it says 358 HP, compared to 327 HP. I don't know this info as a consumer, but FORD DOES, as they have equipment made to tell me so. Same applies. It's a flashlight.....not a NASA space shuttle....

cheaperrooter said:

Can't they just say "The new Fenix PD35 with 840 lumens, 67% brighter then the previous PD32"

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The percentage difference in lumens between two lights is a valid empirical measure, the problem is that it doesn't translate at all to what you perceive. If I compared a 100 lumen light to a 150 lumen one, a 50% difference, and asked a group of people if the second light was 50% brighter, they would all respond "no." The consensus would be closer to about a 10% difference, which the measuring equipment clearly shows is wrong, the numbers are very straightforward, but the eye just doesn't do well discerning differences in brightness. It takes a significant percentage increase in actual lumen numbers [starting at 10%] before you perceive a slight change.

Another example would be if you had a heavily modded light pushing 1000 lumens, and by carefully polishing and wiring the light to lower the internal resistance, you get it up to 1080 lumens; the good news is that's a full 8% increase in output, the bad news is that you would see absolutely no change whatsoever. Even if you compared 1000 and 1080 lumen lights side-by-side, leaving one on for a few minutes to get acclimated and then switching to the other, there would be no discernable difference between the two, you would not be able to tell which light is which by the eye.

I understand that and you're proving my point for me. All the more reason that they should just publish what it really is and leave the perception of it to the individual. Just as I probably won't notuce that extra 35 HP in an engine either, as one may say a lot faster, one may say the same. That doesn't mean we shouldn't know what the HP is? Great, so our perception of the 63% increase is all different, doesn't mean they get to skip sasying it's a 63% increase? Agree or disagree?

Well manufacturers openly advertise their lumen numbers, that's the number that sells the lights; you can find the specific percentage difference yourself by doing the math: % difference = ((larger number/smaller number) - 1) * 100. The problem with advertising a percentage difference number is that there would be a lot of disappointed buyers who don't understand that perception in light change isn't linear - Average Joe is not going to be pleased when he drops big money on a light that's advertised as 50% brighter but looks only a tiny bit brighter than the light he was replacing.