No on LED for emergencies?

erock05

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I just realized that there a few ppl out there who would rather stick to xenon or incan vs LED during an emergency DISASTER situation? I dont remember exactly which scenario it was they were reffering too and Im no expert on any of these things so can anyone tell me what the advantes of having an incan?

Thanks
 

ChrisGarrett

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I just realized that there a few ppl out there who would rather stick to xenon or incan vs LED during an emergency DISASTER situation? I dont remember exactly which scenario it was they were reffering too and Im no expert on any of these things so can anyone tell me what the advantes of having an incan?

Thanks

There aren't any, that I can tell. They're a throwback that people like to fiddle with, which is fine by me. In an emergency, tint isn't going to matter and whether, or not, green leaves look like they would in daylight. I think that a bona fide benefit is increased runtimes and multimode options found on modern lights, not that bulbs can't have hi/lo/med, but they seem to be not all that common.

I guess if there's an EMP attack on the US, incan. guys will probably be laughing, but even though I replaced my 6D ML bulbs with TerraLux Ministar 5s, I've kept the bulbs for that very reason, lol.

Chris
 

PhotonWrangler

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Yeah, It's the EMP attack worriers who will stick with their incands.

Agreed. However the likelihood of dropping one's flashlight is far higher than the likelihood of an EMP attack. If you're really worried about EMP, keep an incandescent on hand as well as an LED (or an LED drop-in for the incandescent).
 

Jimson

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I agree

There aren't any, that I can tell.
Zilch! They're fragile, suck down the batteries, and are increasingly expensive. Regarding EMP, people who worry about that one can put a few LED bulbs (or a whole light) in a metal cookie tin. I've heard the interior of old microwaves is a good safe place too. Anything which safely keeps microwaves inside the cooking cavity ought to do at least as well keeping them out.
 

m4a1usr

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Agreed. However the likelihood of dropping one's flashlight is far higher than the likelihood of an EMP attack. If you're really worried about EMP, keep an incandescent on hand as well as an LED (or an LED drop-in for the incandescent).
100% spot on. Our electronics (generally speaking) surviving an EMP is just like selling real estate. Location, location, location. If your close to the event? You could be exposed to power levels in the watts. If your 20 miles away? You might see an exposure in the mill watts. That might be enough power to mess with your nice new Iphone or Ipad, not even close to fry anything in our lights. Worry if your at ground zero. And buy a box of matches.
 

TMedina

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In a disaster, the best flashlight is the one you have in your hand. That said, if I had a choice, I'd take an LED flashlight over an ican for the reasons already listed:

1. Far better run time
2. Far better output
3. Far better durability

The only real downside of an LED is the electronics so, yes - they are technically vulnerable to an EMP attack. The guys with incan bulbs will be laughing, but not for long as the bulbs break or devour battery stocks. So for most folks, it's really a non-issue.

The other issue, for some, is tint. Arguably, the warmer tints of an incan are better for picking out colors or navigating at night - but having an ugly flashlight (tint) is better than having no light at all. And LEDs are swiftly catching up to incans for tint, so that's also becoming a non-issue very quickly.

Rather than just take our word for it, buy a AA incan MiniMag from Wal-Mart for $8. See how long it lasts you and how many times you have to replace batteries over the course of a weekend. Then try the same experiment with something as simple as a $15 Rayovac Indestructible AA from Home Depot.

Incans had their day, but it makes no sense to allocate limited resources (space and money) for a tool that is superior in only one, very specific scenario and sucks in all possible others.
 

dss_777

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I think my flashlights are the last thing I'm going to be worried about if the issue is EMPs caused by the detonation of nuclear weapons.
 

TMedina

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I think my flashlights are the last thing I'm going to be worried about if the issue is EMPs caused by the detonation of nuclear weapons.

Ha! Fair point.
nuke_zpsf88bff74.gif
 

PhotonWrangler

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In a disaster, the best flashlight is the one you have in your hand. That said, if I had a choice, I'd take an LED flashlight over an ican for the reasons already listed:

1. Far better run time
2. Far better output
3. Far better durability

The only real downside of an LED is the electronics so, yes - they are technically vulnerable to an EMP attack. The guys with incan bulbs will be laughing, but not for long as the bulbs break or devour battery stocks. So for most folks, it's really a non-issue.

The other issue, for some, is tint. Arguably, the warmer tints of an incan are better for picking out colors or navigating at night - but having an ugly flashlight (tint) is better than having no light at all. And LEDs are swiftly catching up to incans for tint, so that's also becoming a non-issue very quickly.

Rather than just take our word for it, buy a AA incan MiniMag from Wal-Mart for $8. See how long it lasts you and how many times you have to replace batteries over the course of a weekend. Then try the same experiment with something as simple as a $15 Rayovac Indestructible AA from Home Depot.

Incans had their day, but it makes no sense to allocate limited resources (space and money) for a tool that is superior in only one, very specific scenario and sucks in all possible others.

Well said, TMedina. My thoughts exactly.
 

scout24

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Thank god you posted this in General Discussion and not in the Incan subforum... :) I debated not chiming in, but I'll stir the pot a little bit. TMedina's post above recommends a Mini-Mag incan against a well- reviewed LED from the Home Depot. If I take one of my E2e Surefires, and ask Tana to build me an LED module for it (Which I did, it's on it's way... :) ) and store a bunch of MN02 incan lamps for it (which I have.) I can have the best of both worlds. Familiar bombproof host with the versatility of multi-mode LED output from Tana's Nichia 219 dropin, and 2 hours at a clip from a pair of cells pushing the MN02. I can also get killer (relatively, no doubt) runtime in my M6 using MN15 bulbs. I will also say that there are probably more P60 hosts out there than most other types of lights, other than Mag lights. I've been a mechanic for a large municipal police department here in NYS for almost 20 years now, and more of my cops carry a Mag or SF 6P than anything else. Outside of our enthusiast community, the wheels of change turn slowly. Take that 6P, C2, or Solarforce LED flamethrower you own, and put some incan P60's aside for it. (Which I did...) You may be glad you did. Finite resources or not, redundancy is important. This post brought to you by someone who carrys and abuses some of the finest LED torches made, everyday. I do also have an incan E2e with me. Every day. :) PS- I've advocated for the cockroach of the AAA LED world (Meant as a compliment based on durability and battery-sipping) for years now, after abusing the heck out of one... The Fenix EO1. In every bag I have in my house or cars, and one on each keyring... PPS- Incans are superior in another area- user serviceability. If it does not work, the list of things possibly wrong is fairly short. Batteries, switch, or bulb...
 
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TEEJ

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EMP attacks are not single event scenarios, and, are typically combined with some way of taking advantage of the temporary crippling of the target's communications, etc. This is why transistor TUBES for some equipment is kept by the gov, as the tubes are not vulnerable to EMP attacks.

:D

As mentioned though, the power required to fry your LED flashlight is so significant that you'd be unlikely to have to worry about it. Your car would go out of action first in most cases for example.

Remember that the LENGTH of the connection is a factor, and the smaller the object, the less impact EMP is going to be ABLE to have. Its orientation is another variable of course, but, generally, the circuits in an LED flashlight are extremely short. The size of the board in most flashlights is similar is size to perhaps the board in an electronic wrist watch, and its already been shown that an LED wristwatch was not vulnerable due to being too small.

Also, if devices are off, in general, they are less failure prone than if in operation at the time of exposure. If devices are in a "skin" they are more protected than if out in the open.

I'd extrapolate and say that therefore, it would take an awful lucky shot to take out an LED flashlight.
 
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PhotonWrangler

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...it's already been shown that an LED wristwatch was not vulnerable due to being too small.

I would agree with this, however it reminded me of something similar -

A long time ago I was touring an AM radio station with a friend. This friend had an LED wristwatch. We were touring the transmitter area when the engineer opened up the door on the cabinet that housed the 5kw audio modulation transformer. My friend stuck his hand inside the cabinet and his wristwatch went :poof:

No noise, no smoke - it just suddenly stopped working. Granted this wasn't an EMP but a 5kw CW signal in close proximity. It certainly made us think.
 

TEEJ

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I would agree with this, however it reminded me of something similar -

A long time ago I was touring an AM radio station with a friend. This friend had an LED wristwatch. We were touring the transmitter area when the engineer opened up the door on the cabinet that housed the 5kw audio modulation transformer. My friend stuck his hand inside the cabinet and his wristwatch went :poof:

No noise, no smoke - it just suddenly stopped working. Granted this wasn't an EMP but a 5kw CW signal in close proximity. It certainly made us think.

I suppose that enough added juice would if nothing else cause induced electrical current from magnetic fields, etc....but an EMP E1 type emission is estimated to be limited to a max emission of ~ 20k - 30k volts per square meter or so at MAX exposure, with off angle exposures dropping dramatically. If the EMP is sourced closer to the ground where there are no charged ions, the exposures drop like crazy...the most devastating are emitted way way up in satellite altitudes, etc.

Radio waves can do funny things though, I think a water company's computer controlled valves were knocked out by the radar from a navy ship ~ 25 miles off shore for example. :D

So, something plugged in, and on, say your desktop PC...with a nice long electrical cord herding those nice new electrons into it would be toasted. If you had the kind of UPS on it that would fry itself before letting any current continue past it...the PC might survive though....Lots of variables.

:D
 

Hallis

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The risk of even EMP damage to the circuitry of an LED light can be minimized by not having the batteries in it for storage. If I remember correctly (and I may be mistaken). EMP's are far far far less likely to fry an electronic if there's no power going to it. I'd just be sure to have NiMH or primary cells handy as protected Lithium rechargables may be at risk.

But for emergencies I keep LED flashlights on hand. for everything.
 

TMedina

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I dunno - the EMP crowd always seems to be the really die-hard survivalist preppers.

At which point I have to assume they've buried a box in the yard with insulation, a box of batteries, and an assortment of electronics to safeguard against an EMP issue.
 

TEEJ

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I dunno - the EMP crowd always seems to be the really die-hard survivalist preppers.

At which point I have to assume they've buried a box in the yard with insulation, a box of batteries, and an assortment of electronics to safeguard against an EMP issue.

Well, typically, if you wanted a lot of protection, you would remove cells, wrap them and the lights in foil and cardboard and foil (Layers protect more than a single thicker layer, and you need non-conductive material between the layers for that to be effective)...and if you are really worried, put the wrapped electronics into a tight fitting lidded round metal garbage can, that you first lined with cardboard. The way fields penetrate is via gaps and conductive pathways...so you don't want air gaps or anything that runs TO the can or wrapped materials. IE: You do NOT "ground" your storage containers...it would channel MORE damage to them.

You can build cages of fine mesh (#20, etc) galvinized steel or aluminum screen as well, if you also shield the wiring, etc.....and these can even protect a solar panel array from all but the worst case scenarios....while still allowing MOST of the sunlight to hit the panels.

The thing to remember with EMP, is that it can flow...so underground is not any safer if there's a path of least resistance to it. That also means that if you are protecting something from a burst, you need 360º coverage, so a transformer on the ground, a solar array on the roof, etc, needs to be COMPLETELY surrounded to work, and that means going UNDER the underground parts, and being UNDER the array's roof mount, etc...essentially putting the equipment in a bag.

So if there's a worst case ~ 30v/m2 burst sequence, even one layer of aluminum foil and cardboard will attenuate that by some factor, potentially enough to avoid damage. From the testing I've seen, two layers of HD foil over cardboard, repeated, would reduce 30k v/m2 down to ~ 3 v/m2.

3 volts per square meter is a lot easier to handle than 30,000 volts per square meter. Putting all that into the tight lidded cardboard lined garbage can will attenuate what's left by about the same margin or more, down to about nil.

If you do the math for the length of a circuit that might arc, etc, if a few volts per m2 were applied shows for example that the smaller the size of the circuit board, the less voltage will be available to go through it.

If LEDs were not directional, I'd even think they'd be fine as is regardless, but they are, so, the size is the primary protection unless you shield it.
 

Echo63

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100% spot on. Our electronics (generally speaking) surviving an EMP is just like selling real estate. Location, location, location. If your close to the event? You could be exposed to power levels in the watts. If your 20 miles away? You might see an exposure in the mill watts. That might be enough power to mess with your nice new Iphone or Ipad, not even close to fry anything in our lights. Worry if your at ground zero. And buy a box of matches.
If your at ground zero of a Nuclear event - you won't need matches - you will glow in the dark !
 

alpg88

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The incandescent guys can laugh until they drop their light and the filament breaks. My LEDs will still be running fine. :)
lol, i had that happened may be few times in my life, burned out drivers happen a lot mor often.
bulbs are easy to change, drivers are not.

i,m pretty sure those ppl that prefer inc. do so cuz you can get them very cheap almost in every 99c store.
 
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