do law enforcement agencies / US military ever use neutral white flashlights?.

neutralwhite · Dec 21, 2013

hello, - why is it that so many US military, LEO's and so on, use cool white still as opposed to neutral white, such as Surefire, and Elzetta where they use the 1C cool white tint.

I thought maybe they would switch to neutral white for better object recognition as such if it does that better, or is it that they don't need to object recognition that much, - or it's made bright to disorientate the subject - or something ?. Never seen anything on SF or Elzetta coming out with neutral white just cool white.

I was wondering if neutral white would have a better or same effect such as surprise, or just that more brightness means brighting up that area more than neutral white to see things in a quick burst or so.

.....is this statement true? (taken from a post on cpf link below)

" If you want see the things you shine the light to, get the cool white, white and bright, like HID.
If you want to look at the color of the trees and side-walk and skin tones, get the neutral white, yellow and dim, like M@glight. "

thank you everyone.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?242062-Cool-White-vs-Neutral-white

TEEJ · Dec 21, 2013

neutralwhite said:
hello, - why is it that so many special forces, LEO's and so on, use cool white still as opposed to neutral white, such as Surefire, and Elzetta where the use the 1C cool white tint.

I thought maybe they would switch to neutral white for better object recognition as such if it does that better, or is it that they don't need to object recognition that much, or it's made bright to disorientate the subject - or something?.
I was wondering if neutral white would have a better or same effect such as surprise or just that more brightness means brighting up that area more than neutral white.

is this statement true? (taken from a post on cpf link below)

" If you want see the things you shine the light to, get the cool white, white and bright, like HID.
If you want to look at the color of the trees and side-walk and skin tones, get the neutral white, yellow and dim, like M@glight. "

thank you everyone.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?242062-Cool-White-vs-Neutral-white

They don't typically worry about tint.

They want to see what's out there. A green or red beam is not unusual in that context either. As a neutral light has less lumen output and throw - its not as effective as a light with more lumens and throw...and, therefore, not desirable in practice.

I do know guys on patrol, especially security, who have specific preferences in this regard. If the lights they carry are bright enough at the involved ranges, etc, some prefer a neutral as a personal preference, and if they buy their own lights with their own money, those guys might use neutral.

MOST prefer cool white though, even when given a preference.

Departments, that I see at least, do not specify tint one way or the other.

Mr. Tone · Dec 21, 2013

To be honest I don't believe most officers or soldiers even know that neutral white lights are available. The most common brand of lights seen among officers are Surefire and Streamlight which do not offer neutral white lights. The statements of brightness on cool vs. neutral are inaccurate. A neutral white LED that is a flux bin or two lower than the standard cool white offerings does not result in any REAL WORLD difference in brightness but it does offer a noticeable difference in color perception. I patrol and strictly use neutral white lights as a rule.

Eagletac is one of few manufacturers that offer neutral white versions of most of their lights. So they just aren't available that easily unless you are a flashaholic in addition to being a cop, soldier, etc., and know where to find such things.

tobrien · Dec 21, 2013

how do you know SF is using 1C tint?

LlF · Dec 21, 2013

i often read on here that warm light is better at depth of field perception, they'd want that no?

Brasso · Dec 21, 2013

Because they use what they are issued, and they are issued the cheapest thing the dept. can get by with, which is usually a cool tinted light. Cool tints can claim higher lumen output which is all most people care about. It's quantity over quality with most folks.

Roger Sully · Dec 22, 2013

Pretty much all LEOs that I've dealt with, given the choice, prefer cool white. Neutral versions , even when rated at the same brightness, appear to be not quite as bright at CW. Not saying that it is but that's how it is perceived.

Etsu · Dec 22, 2013

I think it's just what is available. 95% of flashlights seem to use cool white, so that's what's used. It normally gives the most lumens, and that's what security wants.

It wasn't that long ago that incandescent lights were the only flashlights available, and that's what was used. So I don't think it's a deliberate choice to use cool white; it's just what's common and gives the most lumens-for-the-buck. If warm white was the most common and gave more lumens, they'd use that.

Swedpat · Dec 22, 2013

TEEJ said:
As a neutral light has less lumen output and throw - its not as effective as a light with more lumens and throw...and, therefore, not desirable in practice.

I don't completely agree here, and that of two reasons:

1: more lumens isn't always better. According to my own experience I often find a warmer tint to be more useful because of the better color rendition. Cool tint may be brighter, but the details often dissapear when the colors wash out(I actually experience that I sometimes need less lumens with the warmer tint, because it's more comfortable for the eyes). Against bright and white objects cool tint may be superior, however.

2: the brightness difference between cool white and neutral white is today so marginal; usually only 10-20%. Sometimes even less. That's such a small difference so it's barely noticable for the eye even with the same light and tint.

Therefore I think many people are deceived to believe that the higher lumens, the better, and choose cool tint. Also lumen sells more than anything else, so it's a reason many manufacturers mainly offer cool white options. Many people still have no true experience of the difference between the tints and some of them surely had choose a warmer tint of the actual flashlight model if it was available.

I really think that law enforcement and military in some cases should have more use of neutral tint than cool tint. For example: detecting persons moving or hiding in the forest a better color rendition can be the decisive factor to succed.

JAS · Dec 22, 2013

Do Law Enforcement Agencies / US Military Ever Use Neutral White Flashlights?.

Neutralwhite,

While I Certainly can't speak for the United States Military, since I have never served there, I have been a cop since 1980. I point that out because I have seen change in equipment and procedures over the years, but it is generally need based happens slowly. For example, when I started cop work, most coppers were carrying a revolver, am incandescent MagLite, and a possibly a conventional portable two way radio.

Today, in the Unites States, many coppers are carrying a semi-automatic pistol rather than a revolver. Much has already been written regarding the change on that, so I probably don't need to repeat it. Anyway, suffice to say that need prompted the switch.

Radio technology has also changed. I started by using a VHF conventional, analog transceiver. Today, many places are using digital, trunked radios. Since this is NOT a radio forum, there is little need to discuss details other than to say the reasons were based on anticipated need.

Finally, with regard to "torches" as many across the "big pond" are often apt to say, the Kel-Lite and Mag-Lite were pretty common when I started. Obviosuly they were not rechargeable and used incandescent bulbs. Several factors come up with regard to police illumination. Often times it is cost, size, convenience, but, or course, terms like liability are often used, too. Lets face it, a 6 or 7 D cell flashlight can do some damage if you get struck by it. When cities, counties, and states were paying out judgments on law suits for excessive use of force, some agencies focused on smaller and sometimes non-metallic lights. The old school way of thinking was a bigger light is brighter, thus a smaller light is not as bright.

One of the brighter non-Mag or Kel lites that I recall on the streets was a Streamlight SL-20. Note, I said SL-20, NOT SL-20X. They were brigher AND rechrageable! What more could a copper want? Some of us even did a simple "modification" and inerted am SL-35 lamp assembly in the SL-20. Hey, that was brighter still. However, still a large light.

With use of force lawsuits, LEDs improving, and more choices, we have seen more and smaller lights to choose from. Also, don't forget that more and more agencies train to shoot both with and without a flashlight. So, now we often have a smaller LED light, that is often rechargeable. Sometimes it is a plastic Streamlight Stinger or Strion. Some cops will buy and use their own light, but other only are allowed to use what is issued to them.

Honestly, for all of the discussion in police magazines and on line forums about lights, I NEVER see tint mentioned. Maybe it will come up, but I sort of doubt it.

the.Mtn.Man · Dec 22, 2013

TEEJ said:
As a neutral light has less lumen output and throw - its not as effective as a light with more lumens and throw...and, therefore, not desirable in practice.

I've found that I can see better with a warmer tint even if it technically has less output than a cool tint. This is because cool tints seem to wash out whatever I'm looking at making object recognition comparatively more difficult. Case in point, I was testing out a cool white HDS Rotary versus the high CRI model, and I shown the cool white on my wife's garden then did the same with the high CRI. Suddenly I could see a brown rabbit sitting amidst the green foliage that I hadn't noticed before. When I switched back to the cool white, I realized that the entire scene looked washed out and grey making the brown rabbit virtually indistinguishable from the green leaves. I think this makes warm tints objectively more desirable than cool tints.

Besides, the difference in output would need to be significant in order for cool white to even have a clear advantage in the output and throw department. Remember that you need a 4x increase in output for a perceived doubling in brightness. The difference between 100 and 200 lumens may sound like a lot, but the real world difference is slight.

TMedina · Dec 22, 2013

The US Military is almost notoriously slow to adopt new technology. Or absurdly fast, depending. But I will say that a flashlight is not part of the universal basic issue for the Army: when you get your equipment issue from BCT, or AIT, or even reporting to your new duty station, a flashlight is not even on the list.

I went through BCT in 2006 with a Fulton angle head incandescent. If they haven't picked a flashlight, or a "family of flashlights", the finer points of cool versus neutral are going to be moot points. That said, I don't doubt you'll find individuals who spend money on their own gear and they might have a preference.

Re: Depth perception and color rendition
The warmer tints may very well have that benefit. But it hasn't been *proven* - as in, there hasn't been a formal study using controlled, scientific standards. The best you have are personal anecdotes. And for any major organization like the US military or civilian law enforcement like the FBI to make a sweeping gear purchase, they have to be able to provide a certain level of justification.

Re: output levels of cool versus neutral
The Malkoff modules denote a difference in lumen output. Is it a substantial difference? Not really - I think it's noticeable, but not horribly so. That said, too many people look at the bottom line: "X is brighter, so it must be better!" See my comments above on the subject of large organization purchases - neutral might very well offer better depth perception and color resolution, but that has not been substantiated independently.

There is also no singular doctrine on flashlight use. At least, I've never found a singular document on practical application for the US Army. Just look at the various "flashlight and handgun" techniques, for example. With that in mind, it would be a difficult sell to convince the procurement department that this LED tint is superior to that one.

nfetterly · Dec 22, 2013

Depth Perception.

I have only ran into this once & it is the last time I will use a cool tint by my own choice.

In a closed industrial site - NO ambient light, i had brought in my 6500K SST-50 Mac's EDC. I had the 4500K version the day before. I turned it on & holy crap - I had no depth perception. Is that I-Beam 6 feet away from me or 2 ft?? My superintendent fired up his magcharger and all was good with the incan going, no longer did I have 2d effect from my light, given the ambient light coming from his magcharger. Scary though in a closed industrial site that I did not know well.

TEEJ · Dec 22, 2013

Warmer tints are just that, warmer tints. Warmer tint does not = higher CRI, etc...its JUST a yellower light.

That means that some colors will be over represented, and others will be under represented. This is the same for a cool white light.

Everyone's eyes and personal preferences are just that, their own, and you can't tell someone else that they will "see better" with any particular tint of light, as they may not see what you see.

Also - if your eyes are night adapted, you see in black and white, and the colors are not relevant.

The more night adapted you are, the less color you see. So most of the color comments should be taken in light of the usage that they are taken in terms of.

If you are an LEO, or military, and the light is used sparingly to avoid exposing your position, etc, and you are patrolling a dark area, after a while, you are not seeing colors anymore. This is why red lights are used sometimes, etc.

If you use the lights during the day to peer into dark spaces, machinery, etc, and you are still daylight adapted, you will see colors just fine.

So those using the lights with daylight adapted eyes will appreciate the CRI, and, will see misrepresented colors with other lights, including cool white and warm tints, etc.

Just for perspective, keep in mind that the colors you see are not even the same for daylight. For example, if oyu go out at dawn, and look at a scene, and then the same scene at mid-day and at dusk/twilight, etc, the colors will be different.

One part of the day is with a cooler light, and one part with a warmer light.

Some people prefer the cooler, and some people prefer the warmer versions of daylight, but all tend to agree that daylight is "correct" as far as judging colors. They just disagree as to what time it is when that correctness occurs.

As the question is about agency use, the answer is simple, and answered in several posts: No, they don't. They go by specs, and tint is not in the specs.

As far as the lumen issue, for any given LED, you will get more lumens for the same expenditure of energy with the cooler light. More lumens = seeing more of what's out there.

If you shone the lights on a white wall and asked which is "brighter", humans suck at that...and the differences may not be resolvable.

If you shone the two lights at a target set, the differences become apparent, and, more targets are illuminated, and we can then resolve the differences in "brightness".

So while humans can rarely resolve the difference in output as an independent variable, they can see more with the light, even if they can't tell that it IS more light w/o the targets.

Examples of this are lights of the same beam angle, but 5% different lumen output. Shined at a series of targets, people can identify more targets with the 5% more lumen version.

Another example is two lights with the same lumens, but different beam angles. People report that the light with the wider beam angle is dimmer, and the light with the tighter beam angle as brighter...even though they have the same lumen output.

The number of targets they identify is the same, but, one sees targets further away ahead, and the other sees more peripheral targets, as the distribution is different.

When tint was added as a variable, depending upon the target type, some saw more and some saw less, depending on the target contrast. IE: A warm tint hurt the ability to resolve some targets, and helped the ability to resolve others.

When night adapted, tint did not matter in of itself.

The conclusion was that the tint was generally detrimental, if it meant that for the same amount of energy, fewer lumens were produced, as that was a general constant. If used for daylight adapted vision, tint could be useful for some target types, and, detrimental for others. In situ camouflage patterns for example were sometimes harder to resolve with warmer tints.

So my personal preference for neutral tints is just that, a preference, not a spec, and, not especially better for seeing all things. It really comes down to what needs to be seen, in what context, at what time, under what conditions.

neutralwhite · Dec 22, 2013

a great reply right there. thank you Teej.

TEEJ said:
Warmer tints are just that, warmer tints. Warmer tint does not = higher CRI, etc...its JUST a yellower light.

That means that some colors will be over represented, and others will be under represented. This is the same for a cool white light.

Everyone's eyes and personal preferences are just that, their own, and you can't tell someone else that they will "see better" with any particular tint of light, as they may not see what you see.

Also - if your eyes are night adapted, you see in black and white, and the colors are not relevant.

The more night adapted you are, the less color you see. So most of the color comments should be taken in light of the usage that they are taken in terms of.

If you are an LEO, or military, and the light is used sparingly to avoid exposing your position, etc, and you are patrolling a dark area, after a while, you are not seeing colors anymore. This is why red lights are used sometimes, etc.

If you use the lights during the day to peer into dark spaces, machinery, etc, and you are still daylight adapted, you will see colors just fine.

So those using the lights with daylight adapted eyes will appreciate the CRI, and, will see misrepresented colors with other lights, including cool white and warm tints, etc.

Just for perspective, keep in mind that the colors you see are not even the same for daylight. For example, if oyu go out at dawn, and look at a scene, and then the same scene at mid-day and at dusk/twilight, etc, the colors will be different.

One part of the day is with a cooler light, and one part with a warmer light.

Some people prefer the cooler, and some people prefer the warmer versions of daylight, but all tend to agree that daylight is "correct" as far as judging colors. They just disagree as to what time it is when that correctness occurs.

As the question is about agency use, the answer is simple, and answered in several posts: No, they don't. They go by specs, and tint is not in the specs.

As far as the lumen issue, for any given LED, you will get more lumens for the same expenditure of energy with the cooler light. More lumens = seeing more of what's out there.

If you shone the lights on a white wall and asked which is "brighter", humans suck at that...and the differences may not be resolvable.

If you shone the two lights at a target set, the differences become apparent, and, more targets are illuminated, and we can then resolve the differences in "brightness".

So while humans can rarely resolve the difference in output as an independent variable, they can see more with the light, even if they can't tell that it IS more light w/o the targets.

Examples of this are lights of the same beam angle, but 5% different lumen output. Shined at a series of targets, people can identify more targets with the 5% more lumen version.

Another example is two lights with the same lumens, but different beam angles. People report that the light with the wider beam angle is dimmer, and the light with the tighter beam angle as brighter...even though they have the same lumen output.

The number of targets they identify is the same, but, one sees targets further away ahead, and the other sees more peripheral targets, as the distribution is different.

When tint was added as a variable, depending upon the target type, some saw more and some saw less, depending on the target contrast. IE: A warm tint hurt the ability to resolve some targets, and helped the ability to resolve others.

When night adapted, tint did not matter in of itself.

The conclusion was that the tint was generally detrimental, if it meant that for the same amount of energy, fewer lumens were produced, as that was a general constant. If used for daylight adapted vision, tint could be useful for some target types, and, detrimental for others. In situ camouflage patterns for example were sometimes harder to resolve with warmer tints.

So my personal preference for neutral tints is just that, a preference, not a spec, and, not especially better for seeing all things. It really comes down to what needs to be seen, in what context, at what time, under what conditions.

Swedpat · Dec 22, 2013

TEEJ said:
Warmer tints are just that, warmer tints. Warmer tint does not = higher CRI, etc...its JUST a yellower light.

That's not really true. It's obvious as well according to technical specs and the personal experience that warmer tints gives a better color rendition. Maybe not always a big difference but it's there. Just comparing blue and purple with a a cool white and a warmer tint: the cool white makes these colors looking almost the same. With a warmer tint the difference becomes more obvious. In the nature a cool white washes out the colors and making brown and green looking pretty much the same, while a warm tint clearly separates brown and green from each other. Yes, the color rendition may differ between different cool LEDs and neutral/warm LEDs, but my personal experience is that in general a warmer tint actually provides a better color rendition. In general warmer LEDs also have a higher CRI.
Apart from that I find that the difference in perceptible color rendition between cool and warm is larger than the difference in brightness.

Etsu · Dec 23, 2013

Swedpat said:
That's not really true. It's obvious as well according to technical specs and the personal experience that warmer tints gives a better color rendition.

That's only because LED manufacturers generally design higher CRI into the warmer tints. Otherwise, there's no point in developing a warm tint (that has less lumens), if you don't have higher CRI.

An example of a warm tint with horrible CRI would be a red LED. No ability to distinguish colors at all, and yet it's really warm! Another example is low-pressure sodium lighting; awful CRI, but it's quite warm.

Your point is generally true with flashlight LEDs, but not for the reason that warmth always implies higher CRI.

Swedpat · Dec 23, 2013

Etsu said:
That's only because LED manufacturers generally design higher CRI into the warmer tints. Otherwise, there's no point in developing a warm tint (that has less lumens), if you don't have higher CRI.

An example of a warm tint with horrible CRI would be a red LED. No ability to distinguish colors at all, and yet it's really warm! Another example is low-pressure sodium lighting; awful CRI, but it's quite warm.

Your point is generally true with flashlight LEDs, but not for the reason that warmth always implies higher CRI.

Interesting, thanks for input! Very correct about the red LED. I have an Olight Crimson red light. And while I find it fun to have this deep red tint and it has the advantage that it doesn't worsens the nightvision like white light, the color rendition is almost zero, practically everything looks red.

TEEJ · Dec 23, 2013

Swedpat said:
Interesting, thanks for input! Very correct about the red LED. I have an Olight Crimson red light. And while I find it fun to have this deep red tint and it has the advantage that it doesn't worsens the nightvision like white light, the color rendition is almost zero, practically everything looks red.

Correct. The same for ANY color light...it tends to cast that color.

This is why the red was used as an example of why color doesn't = CRI.

Warm lights do not render colors more accurately...despite the impression/dogma to the contrary.

They render SOME colors better, and others worse, depending on what you are looking at. If night adapted, its not relevant at all, as we are seeing in black and white.

As mentioned, if trying to find people hiding in camouflage, the warm lights are worse for example.

So, while I personally may prefer the way things LOOK, to me, most often, with more like a T6/creamy white tint, I know from testing that I don't see more, overall, with that than with a U2 for example...because I am sacrificing lumens to get the tint, which means lower lux on what I am trying to see.

The farther away my target is, the more lux I need to resolve details...so, the T6 is giving me lower lux to do that with, than the U2, even if I just prefer the tint. I will generally see more with the U2, in testing.

Remember that for LEO/military use, the problem is typically NOT involving interior decoration or color swatch matching, it's finding hidden people or objects, potentially before they find you, so that you have time to react.

Its more important to SEE a bad guy is there, and what's in his hands, than to be able to tell if his socks are the wrong shade of green for his shirt.

For hobby use, you can use whatever you want...as its a 100% personal choice with no wrong answer. If your life might depend on seeing if someone is out there...and 5 lux is enough and 4.9 lux is not, you'd rather have 5 lux.

The extremely rare scenarios where the lux is enough but the need to over emphasize brown is an advantage (Over emphasizing browns is something warms do better) then, sure, warm is good, but, the need to NOT over emphasize browns is a lot more common.

I use a lot of wavelengths though, as its like having a golf bag with a lot of clubs...and not having to make every shot with a 5 iron regardless of if its a putt or drive, etc.

I might use UV, IR, etc, and anything in between, not just warm or cool, and so forth. I want the right club for the shot.

As far as specs though, as everyone who is involved will tell you, there is NO TINT SPEC. Its run time lux and lumens if anything regarding output.

Etsu · Dec 23, 2013

Just to add to the confusion, I'm not convinced the CRI standard is a perfect system for measuring color rendition. For example, a CRI=100 incandescent flashlight has a horrible time distinguishing blues. Blues look very dark, and are sometimes hard to tell apart from black. Reds look great, though! Reds almost look too great, and will make skin tones appear more red to the eye than they really are.

It really depends what you like. Personally, I like the look of incandescent light, even though it's not really that accurate.

do law enforcement agencies / US military ever use neutral white flashlights?.

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