peak non repetitive current

Ronv

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I'm having a spirited debate with a guy on another forum about powering leds using transformer less power supplies. The type where a capacitor limits the current to the led. I maintain a series resistor should be used to limit the current on power up. He says not needed. The second is what happens to Vf at very high currents. Does it continue to rise at about the same rate?

Thanks
 

DIWdiver

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Resistor may or may not be needed. Think about what happens when you first plug it in. If the line voltage is just nearing peak, you will have a huge surge of current. Based on your thread title, you probably already know this. I the rating of the LED is high enough, you don't need the resistor. Otherwise you do. First you'd need to construct the current waveform, but without knowing the impedance pretty well, you could only take a WAG.

Unless one component has a resistance that dominates, i.e. a resistor, you need to know the impedance of the line, power cord, switch, rectifiers, capacitor, LED, and anything else in the circuit. Those are all normally quite low and poorly characterized, particularly under extreme (high current) conditions. My crystal ball is pretty cloudy lately. How's yours?

Of course, peak non-repetitive pulse current is not a spec that's usually published for LEDs, so you're left to speculate, and have a 'spirited debate'. Cree has a document about pulse applications. It might prove insightful, but I haven't read it.

If you haven't already considered it, the worst case is when you are connecting the device to the line, and have a half-cycle 'bounce' or brief disconnect. That way you can have the cap fully charged one polarity, and suddenly apply full voltage of the opposite polarity. That way you can have twice the peak-peak line voltage driving current in your circuit.

I don't know where you live, but even 200V in a low-impedance circuit gives a pretty massive current spike. Some places it could be 480V! I'd worry about exploding the bond wires.
 

RetroTechie

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Welcome to CPF, Ronv! :wave:

Initial thought was the main factors would be capacitor (value, mostly, but Equivalent Series Resistance too), wiring and the LED's thermal mass. But indeed:

I'd worry about exploding the bond wires.
Crazy effects like that would be a real possibility at peak currents of 10, 50A or more. What capacitor and LED do you have in mind? I have a 40W rated power LED here, but its datasheet says never to go over ~1.6A (at ~33V), regardless how short pulsed. Might just have to do with other things than thermal mass that limit peak current (like bond wires).

I think the only safe option, is to include a series resistor that keeps current peaks within manageable limits. There are other options (select a capacitor with high ESR, inlude an NTC in the circuit, keep some wires thin on purpose), but a resistor is simple & robust. Ignore the issue and your LED likely won't live long. :poof:

Btw what AC voltage are we talking about? :thinking:

I don't know where you live, but even 200V in a low-impedance circuit gives a pretty massive current spike. Some places it could be 480V!
Current is measured in Ampères (A). ;)
 

Ronv

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Thanks guys. We are in agreement, so at least I feel better about where I'm at.
We used 120 volts so 340v given the cap was charged up in the wrong direction.
The LED is not well defined, I've just been using a 40 ma one in Spice to model it. The peak currents are in the order of 40 amps, but of course the time is very short. (889 nf cap) so the total energy is about 60 mj.
 

DIWdiver

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We used 120 volts so 340v given the cap was charged up in the wrong direction.
... The peak currents are in the order of 40 amps...

That would suggest a total equivalent series resistance of 8.5 ohms. That seems like a lot. Is most of that in the cap?
 
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