So every night before I go to bed I take my P12 out of my shorts and place it on the nightstand. Last night I don't know what I was thinking but I somehow forgot to do it then threw it in the wash. I woke up this morning and reached my for my P12 and it wasn't there! I thought "oh crap" so I ran to the washer, stopped the cycle, and pulled my shorts out with my P12 clipped to it. I always unscrew the tailcap 1/3 of a turn to lock it out, so I was concerned that might allow water to seep through. So I pull my P12 out, screw the tailcap back, turn the light on and voila! It worked perfectly, all modes, memory, voltage indicator, everything. I know most flashlights are IPX-8 but I was still really impressed (and relieved) that everything was fine.
Nitecore P12 in the Washing Machine
- Thread starter Ryp
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ven
Flashaholic
Good news on the p12,:twothumbsmakes me wonder does this...........:thinking:
In reality there is more chance of an edc being left in pants/coat(even an anorak
) and washed,maybe a washer rating,speed cycle /time including temperature :laughing:
There is a 99% more of a chance of this than being submersed 2m in my case anyway.
In reality there is more chance of an edc being left in pants/coat(even an anorak
) and washed,maybe a washer rating,speed cycle /time including temperature :laughing:There is a 99% more of a chance of this than being submersed 2m in my case anyway.
I too am quite impressed yet also perhaps a bit skeptical - the P12 isn't that small or lightweight, especially with battery installed, so it's hard to see how anyone could miss it in a pocket. I have to ask sir, were you in fact very, very drunk at the time?
I'd like to see some more destruction tests of various common lights like the P12, PD35, D25x, etc., to see how they hold up to things like repeatedly being dropped, being submerged overnight and so on. I'd particularly like to see someone compare some D25s with the identical Ti version. I'd recommend against testing in a washing machine though, unless you have a good supply of spare washing machines. Also such tests will end up costing someone a bit of money unless the manufacturers were prepared to donate a few samples, for science. I suppose if you started off investing in a few units from one manufacturer that can be relied upon to hold up pretty well, other manufacturers might be prepared to donate a few units to avoid their competitor looking like a "tougher" brand than theirs. Someone with a good reputation like Selfbuilt could maybe pull this off. I don't put much stock in tests of a single unit though: I'd say 3 is the absolute minimum to avoid outliers completely skewing the results.
I'd like to see some more destruction tests of various common lights like the P12, PD35, D25x, etc., to see how they hold up to things like repeatedly being dropped, being submerged overnight and so on. I'd particularly like to see someone compare some D25s with the identical Ti version. I'd recommend against testing in a washing machine though, unless you have a good supply of spare washing machines. Also such tests will end up costing someone a bit of money unless the manufacturers were prepared to donate a few samples, for science. I suppose if you started off investing in a few units from one manufacturer that can be relied upon to hold up pretty well, other manufacturers might be prepared to donate a few units to avoid their competitor looking like a "tougher" brand than theirs. Someone with a good reputation like Selfbuilt could maybe pull this off. I don't put much stock in tests of a single unit though: I'd say 3 is the absolute minimum to avoid outliers completely skewing the results.
caddylover
Flashlight Enthusiast
Nice!
For FUTURE reference...
If that sort of thing happens again, DON'T test it first, OPEN it the rest of the way first, and look inside for water.
If it WAS wet, turning it on is a bad idea.
Just in case.
+1
Well what happened was, every night before bed I usually take it out of my pocket but last night I was so tired I just threw my shorts in the hamper and forgot I even had the P12 in it.
Nice!
For FUTURE reference...
If that sort of thing happens again, DON'T test it first, OPEN it the rest of the way first, and look inside for water.
If it WAS wet, turning it on is a bad idea.
Just in case.
Ahh good point, thanks for the advice!
A chemist I worked with once lost his car keys which were on a large ball of keys. He looked all over for them, and, was freaking out because he needed them to both lock some stuff up before he could leave for the day, plus, he could not drive home w/o the keys, etc. He used the urinal in the bathroom at the end of the day, and, lo and behold, they were in his underwear...and when he "went" last time, he apparently dropped his keys into his shorts, then zipped up, and forgot.
We called him numb-nuts after that.
A good point. So what could go wrong though? I was thinking about this and I can think of two scenarios:
- Full of water inside = dead short, battery has probably already exploded/vented. In this case opening it might be a bad idea as well.
- Some water inside = possible short across some components, turning it on results in a short circuit, possibly resulting in fireworks.
Since this particular light runs only on lithium ion or lithium primaries, all results are likely to be bad. However, if it's a protected cell then the protection circuit should stop anything bad happening in the event of a short circuit, unless the water has affected the protection circuit itself. Which raises the interesting question of whether that is even possible. In general how will a protection circuit fail if a cell is immersed in water? What difference will the salt content of the water make to this mode of failure? How likely is it that water will penetrate the cell itself and react with the chemicals contained within (esp., lithium!)?
BTW, if these questions would be better off x-posted to the other forum, let me know and I'll repost it there. I'm not too sure of the forum rules on cross posting.
If you have the P12 water test I have a drop test, a couple days ago I knocked my P12 off a 5' tall fireplace mantle onto concrete. It hit bezel first then the tail struck pretty hard, turned it on worked fine and the only damage was a very small dent/chip in the bezel and tail.
The primary reason a light uses O-rings, etc, to keep water out, is that the water tends to be conductive. When you add random paths of least resistance to a circuit, you can have random currents that do random things. If one of those random things was a reversal of a ground path, or sending flow in the reverse polarity, etc, the electronics, LED or cell can be harmed. If the harm causes a run away reaction, etc, its worse than the light reacting as though you put the cell in backwards and just dying quietly. And so forth.
You just don't know what random paths of least resistance are in the light where the water dripped and ran or is pooled, etc. But, turning the light on is a way to energize those paths...and, they either work out OK, or, they don't.
IE: Open it and make sure its dry, and if not, dry it before energizing it.
You just don't know what random paths of least resistance are in the light where the water dripped and ran or is pooled, etc. But, turning the light on is a way to energize those paths...and, they either work out OK, or, they don't.
IE: Open it and make sure its dry, and if not, dry it before energizing it.
Hi Teej, thanks for that but it doesn't really address some of the important points in my post. In particular, the fact that if you get a lot of water in a light, it will dead short anyway (especially if the water has a high salt content) so this is already the worst case scenario without you having to turn anything on. If the switch is already shorted out by water, it makes no difference if you press it.
If a lithium cell vents inside the torch body, it's possible that it will be housing the result if whatever reaction has taken place, which may or may not involve the water, and the water may or may not have dissolved the resulting chemicals. For instance, if a lithium cell vents you get hydrogen fluoride, which may dissolve in water to produce hydrofluoric acid. If there's not enough water for that, it may escape as a gas which is likely to be a lot worse.
Hence the possibility that it might be much worse to open up a light that water has penetrated (possibly releasing various toxic chemicals) than not to.
The question then is how do you safely determine that it is OK? I don't think opening it up and peering inside is the correct answer.
If a lithium cell vents inside the torch body, it's possible that it will be housing the result if whatever reaction has taken place, which may or may not involve the water, and the water may or may not have dissolved the resulting chemicals. For instance, if a lithium cell vents you get hydrogen fluoride, which may dissolve in water to produce hydrofluoric acid. If there's not enough water for that, it may escape as a gas which is likely to be a lot worse.
Hence the possibility that it might be much worse to open up a light that water has penetrated (possibly releasing various toxic chemicals) than not to.
The question then is how do you safely determine that it is OK? I don't think opening it up and peering inside is the correct answer.
The cells are closed...the water doesn't really get into them in that scenario. Its not a lithium chuck floating in the light, etc...its a sealed cell with the lithium, as a compound, inside it.
If they vent, the light's going to be bulged out somewhere, typically the board end blows, etc.
If you turn it on, you increase the odds that current will go somewhere bad.
If you first take it outside for example, and unscrew the head or cap, and look into it, you'll see if water is in there.
To look at it another way, say if you follow your primary concern...if there's gases in there, and you turn it on, you are adding current to the gases and whatver chemicals are loose in there. This is a opportunity for a reaction that did not exist until you turned it on...
...if nothing happens when you turn it on (Except the light goes on...), it just means its still working, but, it might be about to have a problem....or, that its dry.
When you EVENTUALLY change the cells, if it WAS wet, now the water has had more time to corrode things than it would have, and, whatever chemicals you didn't want to come out before, come out now.
So, rather than wait and give more time for damage to occur wile simultaneouly increasing the opportunity for damage to occur, you are checking to see if there's any water in there, and drying it out if there is.
If they vent, the light's going to be bulged out somewhere, typically the board end blows, etc.
If you turn it on, you increase the odds that current will go somewhere bad.
If you first take it outside for example, and unscrew the head or cap, and look into it, you'll see if water is in there.
To look at it another way, say if you follow your primary concern...if there's gases in there, and you turn it on, you are adding current to the gases and whatver chemicals are loose in there. This is a opportunity for a reaction that did not exist until you turned it on...
...if nothing happens when you turn it on (Except the light goes on...), it just means its still working, but, it might be about to have a problem....or, that its dry.
When you EVENTUALLY change the cells, if it WAS wet, now the water has had more time to corrode things than it would have, and, whatever chemicals you didn't want to come out before, come out now.
So, rather than wait and give more time for damage to occur wile simultaneouly increasing the opportunity for damage to occur, you are checking to see if there's any water in there, and drying it out if there is.
Um, no. If the cell has undergone a reaction then there won't be any chemical potential to create a current for the circuit. In fact you don't have a circuit at all anymore, just a tube full of (rather toxic) mush.
I think it's safe to say that the very first thing you should do is look into the lens end and see if there's any apparent damage there. Beyond that, I'm not so sure.
It seems highly unlikely you'd see a bulge anywhere along the tube because structurally, a metal cylinder is exceptionally strong. If there is a pressure build up due to venting then the pressure might be completely contained. It could also leak out slowly - quite possible give that water has already penetrated the seals, indicating they are not watertight/airtight. Maybe, if there is any damage anywhere, it will be visible at the weakest point which is normally the reflector/lens assembly.
It's also worth noting that if the cell does vent and produce hydrofluoric acid which then leaks out, the water on the outside will also be acidic. How acidic would depend on how much water there was in relation to the amount of HF released, but apparently HF acid is pretty dangerous stuff that can kill just through skin contact in sufficient concentration. It will also eat through almost anything. Not something to take chances with.
Right, but, if the light's full of HF, etc...its STILL full later after you tried to turn it on.
The bottom line is, its like that Schrodinger's cat.
I mean, if it MIGHT have gotten wet, its either wet, or, its dry.....and turning it on, or leaving it off, won't change that.
So then you look at the obvious cost/benefit ratios of your next actions.
1) Turn it on w/o looking (Your Plan A)
2) Look at it first (My Plan A)
Givens Either Way:
If its broken/ruined, its going to stay that way.
If its OK, turning it on might ruin it....and make it not OK.
The stronger the pipe, the more powerful the pipe bomb explosion. Flashlights bodies do NOT resist explosion, and, as mentioned, the board end blows out at a minimum, and, even with that large / less restrictive opening to vent, the tube sections and tail caps often blow as well.
The bottom line is, its like that Schrodinger's cat.
I mean, if it MIGHT have gotten wet, its either wet, or, its dry.....and turning it on, or leaving it off, won't change that.
So then you look at the obvious cost/benefit ratios of your next actions.
1) Turn it on w/o looking (Your Plan A)
2) Look at it first (My Plan A)
Givens Either Way:
If its broken/ruined, its going to stay that way.
If its OK, turning it on might ruin it....and make it not OK.
The stronger the pipe, the more powerful the pipe bomb explosion. Flashlights bodies do NOT resist explosion, and, as mentioned, the board end blows out at a minimum, and, even with that large / less restrictive opening to vent, the tube sections and tail caps often blow as well.
Except that's neither my plan nor my concern. My concern is that if a reaction of some sort has taken place, you may be lucky and all the nasty stuff is contained in the torch body, which gives you the opportunity to get rid of it safely (call the fire brigade). If you open it to see if it is wet inside, you could get into a lot more trouble by releasing whatever is inside the case. This of course assumes that whatever is inside the case hasn't already leaked out.
I'm not sure that trying to turn it on is such a great idea either. If some random component other than the switch is shorted and the battery is not shorted, then the effects would be unpredictable and could be bad. However, if enough water gets in, you are going to have bigger problems because it will have already caused a short circuit. In that case whether you press the button or not simply makes no difference.
LOL
It was Ryp's light...I was forgetting.
I thought you were saying to turn it on to see if it works, instead of opening it....but, it seems I misunderstood what you were saying.
It appears you and I are both saying a similar scenario, except you say if it gets wet, it ruined no matter what, and I'm saying it can get wet, as long as its off, and sometimes be OK.
I know its true at least sometimes, as I test stuff, and, water gets into things, and, after being dried, they can still work. Isopropanol for example helps to dry out the electronics, allowing salvage.
If in your experience, there is no way for it to be wet, and then work, OK. Its just not my experience.
ven
Flashaholic
Imo be it right or wrong,the concern originally was from it being locked out so tail cap 1/4 turn loose at most(usually).
As said O rings are there,make sure lubed.
Dont lock out light until removed,or last thing at night so if forgot then its fully sealed.
In a washing machine its not submerged deep,under pressure and more than likely cushioned by clothes,if not you would hear it.
If still a major concern,simply put,if not sure safely discard...........
Other than that dont wash it :laughing:
The time submerged would not be enough to corrode the cell,agree maybe on not trying light,i would remove cell carefully,could wear a dust mask for example...
Check inside for signs upon careful removal of cell.
Other than that i cant think of any other answers,common sense,precautions to be taken (gloves/mask/goggles) and do outside,other than that its a lot of what ifs........
Just my opinion:twothumbs not saying i am right
As said O rings are there,make sure lubed.
Dont lock out light until removed,or last thing at night so if forgot then its fully sealed.
In a washing machine its not submerged deep,under pressure and more than likely cushioned by clothes,if not you would hear it.
If still a major concern,simply put,if not sure safely discard...........
Other than that dont wash it :laughing:
The time submerged would not be enough to corrode the cell,agree maybe on not trying light,i would remove cell carefully,could wear a dust mask for example...
Check inside for signs upon careful removal of cell.
Other than that i cant think of any other answers,common sense,precautions to be taken (gloves/mask/goggles) and do outside,other than that its a lot of what ifs........
Just my opinion:twothumbs not saying i am right
y260
Enlightened
Why lock out the P12 at all? The clicky tailswitch terminates any standby current and the raised edges on the tailcap make accidental activation less likely...
Largely, but bear in mind this isn't something that's happened to me, so this is all theoretical. However my concern is that if you get enough water in there to cause a short then you are going to be in trouble whether or not you turn the light on, and given the somewhat nasty stuff that can come out of a lithium cell, it's probably better to keep it contained inside the torch if at all possible where it can do the least amount of harm to anyone, until it can be disposed of safely.
Of course if you only get a small amount of water ingress then it probably won't cause a dead short and as you say, if you dry it off then it'll all be fine, barring any corrosion that might have occurred.
I'm not so much trying to make any particular assertion about this one way or another (I'm really not an expert), so much as asking what others think about the risks involved and what is the safest way to approach a lithium cell-containing light that may have suffered water damage, with the possibility of a short and all the bad things that might result from that.
I'm just not sure opening it up to take a look is the best idea given that you could get a nasty HF surprise when you do. However, it's also entirely possible that this scenario would never occur anyway because the HF would eat right through the case. On that point, I really have no idea and would leave it to those with better knowledge of the chemistry and/or experience of such incidents to advise.
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ven
Flashaholic
From what i have read over the months,it seems the lens is the more prone part,and these were the ipx8 rated too...........
Potential O rings not aligned/trapped when built to not being fully secure...
Not flooded,just traces of water inside lens.
If in doubt take appropriate safety measures,but goes without saying
Potential O rings not aligned/trapped when built to not being fully secure...
Not flooded,just traces of water inside lens.
If in doubt take appropriate safety measures,but goes without saying
