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Thread: Filament LED

  1. #1

    Default Filament LED

    The emitter uses a construction that I have never seen before.... the only thing close that I know of is organic LEDs. Does anyone know more about the base technology of this bulb?





  2. #2
    Flashaholic* LEDAdd1ct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Very cool!

    Will keep an eye on this thread.

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    Flashaholic* AnAppleSnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I looks like a linear COB-style (Array of LEDs) with very little done for heatsinking. Was the bulb pressurized? That could increase conduction of heat from the 'filament' slightly.
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    There will be a bunch of these on the market soon but expect to see some patent battles too. Was several at the Hong Kong light show and saw the first ones 6 months ago.

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    Flashaholic wws944's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Is this it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-3-6W-A60...9726ec&vxp=mtr

    Funny that they don't specify lumens. However they do claim 150 lumens/watt (!). Do they really mean 150 lumens (e.g., with a 3.6w power draw, it would work out to 41 lumens/watt)?

    Here is another one that uses "Nooble Gas" ( ) to increase lifespan: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newest-Ediso...item3f33c364c4
    Last edited by wws944; 05-01-2014 at 07:25 AM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Filament LED

    the bulb was from the vendor in the 1st link

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I will see if I can get a data sheet on the filaments

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    It seems most of these lamps are getting in excess of 100 lm/W overall. That implies 110 to 125 lm/W for the LED filaments themselves. Given that most of these bulbs have 4 to 12 filaments, each filament only needs to deal with well under one watt of heat. Doubtless junction temperatures are high, probably over 100°C, but that's still within the safe operating range. Even two years ago, a design like this wouldn't have been possible because LEDs weren't efficient enough.

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    It seems most of these lamps are getting in excess of 100 lm/W overall.
    Are there credible reports of that, or just ebay ads and claims from no-name Chinese manufacturers?
    Jim

  10. #10
    *Flashaholic* Illum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    yep.... this first came about in 2009. It was an accent lamp at the time. Heatsinking with still air is a goober.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illum View Post
    Japanese company Ushio Lighting came out with a 2500K Filament LED lamps for decoration/general lighting purposes...
    At 0.6W per lamp they rated the output to be ~18lm...
    150VDC....High-efficiency d.c. electroluminescence?
    Last edited by Illum; 05-01-2014 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    They are LEDs with phosphor. No magic.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic carnal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Thank You electronupdate! The microscope views of the arrays under the phosphor were cool! No flicker is a big surprise for such a cheap bulb from China. I expected no filtering at all. Amazing! Wonder what that array would have done with diminishing sine wave off an autotransformer, just at the cut off-point? Maybe not much different than what you had, due to it's solid state controls. If a designer knew that the user had varying level of sign wave input, perhaps there could have been SOME dimming.
    Thanks for what you do!
    Experiment on cool stuff, instead of forum conversation involving assumptions and endless arguments of STUPIDITY! You just tear stuff apart and show us all! REFRESHING!!!

    I guess China's Filabulb is one of the patent holders. http://www.ledfilamentbulb.cn/

    Also this site sells the filaments. Some specs there. 10mA @ 75-85 input voltage with 120-130 lm/w & 90-95 CRI
    http://www.runlite.cn/en/product-detail-145.html.

    These guys have the glass enclosure down RIGHT! (it looks more like the vintage looking carbon filament shaped bulb we are all familiar with)
    http://www.volkerhaug.com/shop/lamps...nt-edison.html
    Edit... That site is not pulling up the photo now, but it had a photo of a LED powered filament bulb in the classic edison carbon shape. But at 6X the cost! (compared to Ebay $10 vers)
    It can be seen here in the 5th row from the top in all its Australian glory...
    http://www.volkerhaug.com/shop/lamps/led-lamps.html

    Someone should let Filabulb know how important the enclosure is in many applications! Perhaps they could supply lamps to directly to the "lovers of the" Edison carbon filament market directly. They would probably crap their pants if they knew they could get $60 (US equiv) in an vintage Edison looking enclosure.

    They are prob a young company that doesn't understand the "retro" market. Or they just don't care, and want to push volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    They are LEDs with phosphor. No magic.
    I say it IS magic! Lest no one up till this point has produced the retro look of a filament, WHILE doing it in LED's. NOVEL! From an artistic perspective, anyway. Think what this could do for the EL wire market! It is much brighter.
    Last edited by carnal; 05-01-2014 at 07:27 PM.

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* LEDAdd1ct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    1) electronupdate, where would you peg the color temperature?

    2) How well does it render browns and reds, traditional shortcomings of LED bulbs?

    3) Video linked here.

    4) More specs here.

    5) Do these "COB" have enough heatsinking for sustained use?

    6) Two U.S.A. sellers, superbrightleds and ledstoreusa, appear to stock these. The second site apparently has a six watt, 600 lumen version...

    7) See also "B00HZC5UOW" on Amazon.

    8) Finally, one person notes the product code ZL-A19-FIL-4W-27K
    which takes you to this PDF.

    9) With these (apparently) available domestically, no reason to wait for the slow boat from China save for the slightly cheaper price.
    Last edited by LEDAdd1ct; 05-01-2014 at 07:44 PM.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* JohnR66's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Measure the light from the bulb and run it for 1 or 2K hours and measure again. Be sure to measure the light at the same position and distance to be accurate. If the bulb maintains its output, I'd say it is an interesting product, otherwise, it is more of the same Chinese junk.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnR66 View Post
    Measure the light from the bulb and run it for 1 or 2K hours and measure again. Be sure to measure the light at the same position and distance to be accurate. If the bulb maintains its output, I'd say it is an interesting product, otherwise, it is more of the same Chinese junk.
    Wow...an honest post instead of the typical 'LED fanboy' club where all LED's are cool non-sense. These are typical Chinese junk products made to separate you from your hard earned dollars...that is all. The vendors mentioned above only sell junk. I have bought from them in the past and can say honestly that the products they sell should have never been imported to the U.S. Do you see the top tiers (Philips, CREE, Osram) making this kind of lamp? There's a reason for that.
    Last edited by Lightdoctor; 05-02-2014 at 07:15 AM.

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* LEDAdd1ct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    While I do not see a Cree branded product of this type,
    Cree does produce COB diodes.

    I bet if Cree did produce a COB "filament" LED bulb, they would fly right off the shelves.

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Neither Cree nor Philips have an exclusivity on LED knowledge or innovation. Knocking the product simply cause it is Chinese is stupid ... Especially since the base technology is Taiwanese.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Filament LED

    These "filament led" bulbs use helium as the fill gas, which supposedly conducts heat from the "filaments" to the outer glass envelope. I know a couple lamp engineers personally and they said they were impressed by these lamps, but their concerns are that the electronics could be a weak point and also the vacuum seal could leak in some cases, which could pose premature failures from overheating.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* AnAppleSnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Helium is 10x more conductive than most air. Who knew? That also means a large reduction in thermal transfer when it leaks.

    I know Switch (Or someone) tried to make heat-pipe bulbs that carried heat by condensing on the glass. This seems simpler, until the seal fails.
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  20. #20
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Note that the chips they use are rated for 10mA, not the 20mA that most manufacturers spec their 5mm LEDs at. Since those are heatsinked through the legs, if at all, I would guess that these may not require much more heatsinking than is supplied by the metal wires that support the individual "filaments."

    It is very cool that you have even found a supplier of the filaments themselves!

    With some places banning various incan bulbs, and incan bulbs having a great clear retro look to them, I could see these taking off if they tweak their phosphor for less efficacy and more warm-and-fuzzy light

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* JohnR66's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    If you ever made an array of 5mm LEDs on a perfboard you have seen how warm they can get at 20ma. These things so tightly spaced can still get quite warm. I can't say how warm, but they probably could last if quality parts were used. If they used the Fade-in-a-week crap dies like I've seen in so many 5mm LEDs and strip LEDs, well don't expect much.

    Lightdoctor. If you have actually tried these LED bulbs, I'd be curious of their failure mode.

    Indeed I pick on crap products. I have tested lots of various 5mm LEDs that don't last a week. Traffic signal LED lamps with sections out. Commercial lamp installations with several emitters out. Chinese COB LEDs with strips in the array that fail. Lots of store display products where the LEDs have faded severely.

    Think of the consumers that buy this crap and have it fail on them. They are reluctant to try new LED products and will badmouth it. "I tried that LED stuff and it was a waste of money. Pure junk." Discouraging for people like me who want to see LEDs succeed.
    Last edited by JohnR66; 05-02-2014 at 05:02 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Filament LED

    JohnR66,

    I have not bought the lamp in question, but I have bought in the past from the said vendors. I happen to work in energy conservation, and like you, have seen many LED bulbs, traffic signals, street lights (cobraheads, shoeboxes etc.) fail. Where were the parts sourced from? China. Why? Greed, pure and simple. There are superior products from the US, and the EU, that blow away the far east crap.

    SemiMan,

    Do you work in the industry, or is this a hobby? Why are you so defensive? Something to hide? You've been to the automotive board and heard about the less than stellar products that come from over there. If you think the LED filament bulb is so great, link up more information and try to change my mind instead of saying people who don't agree with you are stupid.
    Last edited by Lightdoctor; 05-02-2014 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Not at all defensive and do work in the industry.

    I will speak out against ignorant comments. For one a reminder that most Philips bulbs are made in China ... Yet a comment made that because Cree and Philips have not done this that it can't be good. That is a foolish comment.

    5mm LEDs fail mainly due to the epoxy phosphor interface causing the epoxy to yellow and haze, not failure of the underlying blue die. A lot of others fail due to overdriving.

    Remember when people used to make fun of Made in Japan?

    No one has even tried to do a thermal analysis. LEDs in silicone at 100c (or higher) can last a long time and at 100c+ radiative loss is not insubstantial and you have the full cylinder for surface area.

    FYI , no ripple is easy when power factor is not a concern.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdoctor View Post
    JohnR66,

    I have not bought the lamp in question, but I have bought in the past from the said vendors. I happen to work in energy conservation, and like you, have seen many LED bulbs, traffic signals, street lights (cobraheads, shoeboxes etc.) fail. Where were the parts sourced from? China. Why? Greed, pure and simple. There are superior products from the US, and the EU, that blow away the far east crap.

    SemiMan,

    Do you work in the industry, or is this a hobby? Why are you so defensive? Something to hide? You've been to the automotive board and heard about the less than stellar products that come from over there. If you think the LED filament bulb is so great, link up more information and try to change my mind instead of saying people who don't agree with you are stupid.
    I work in the transportation industry now. I used to work in the semiconductor industries in the USA, Korea and China. Currently I have a side business engineering and manufacturing custom PCBs, power trays, harnesses, etc. A while back I was at the maintenance depot of our European made street car system. They had the motor drivers on a bench. These are made in Germany. I popped a cover on one, look at the PCB components and I immediately recognized a relay I have used many times before on interlock PCBs. I was floored to see that the Omron relay was made in Germany! The only kind I have been able to source are Omron from China. Same exact relay. I started looking around the driver assembly and realized that I couldn't find any parts made in China. Mostly European, Korean and a few USA and Japan components. It was pretty obvious that the manufacturer of these drivers took reliability seriously. Surprising me was the fact that you can still find stuff that's not "Made in China", WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Not at all defensive and do work in the industry.

    I will speak out against ignorant comments. For one a reminder that most Philips bulbs are made in China ... Yet a comment made that because Cree and Philips have not done this that it can't be good. That is a foolish comment.

    5mm LEDs fail mainly due to the epoxy phosphor interface causing the epoxy to yellow and haze, not failure of the underlying blue die. A lot of others fail due to overdriving.

    Remember when people used to make fun of Made in Japan?

    No one has even tried to do a thermal analysis. LEDs in silicone at 100c (or higher) can last a long time and at 100c+ radiative loss is not insubstantial and you have the full cylinder for surface area.

    FYI , no ripple is easy when power factor is not a concern.
    Many people get all excited about flashy new products and tech, most of which comes from China. They want to believe the hype and buy into it. But soon they end up with a pile of junk at home, in the office, etc. All this Chinese made stuff that fizzled out because it was made cheaply. But fortunately for the Chinese, we westerners are easily distracted with our collective consumeristic ADD. We're being conditioned to accept junk. I think both of you know that the reason behind the bad rap Made in China gets is complicated, and not as simple as where it is made. Some manufacturers do have good success with factories in China. Most don't, IMO.

    Semiman, China is NOT Japan. Officially, China is our adversary. Japan is an ally. China has vast, nearly endless cheap labor, and can decimate western industry for many more decades than Japan could have. I loath when people say "we used to say the same about Japan". But, whatever, I'm stuck riding this sinking ship down with everyone else.

    OTOH, I do really like these light bulbs. If they could make a dimmable version, that'd be great.
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Made in China simply discounting everything made in China as crap was the same tactic the automotive industry made with Japan who may be military allies if you could say that but I don't think care too much about US success. The American automotive industry is still trying to recover from that arrogance.

    China is not decimating Western industry we are pretty good at doing that all on our own whether it is greed of business or that of consumers.

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* JohnR66's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I agree that the products manufactured in China are not all of poor quality. There are quality products but they command a higher price. Cree does (or did) make some of their LEDs in China. I do take issue with the large amount of counterfeit products that flow out of the country.

    I'm well aware of the 5mm LED fading issue due to low grade epoxy. It is also because the die used is very small and degrade from the current flow.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Any more news on the durability of these china filament bulbs? Do they leak helium after a while? Do they fail or change after 2k hours?

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I am waiting for the retro-nostalgic curly led filament bulb.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* PhotonWrangler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by degarb View Post
    I am waiting for the retro-nostalgic curly led filament bulb.
    This might be achievable with OLEDs on flexible substrates.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    What's new on those filament LED bulbs ? Any feedback on their life span ?
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