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Thread: Filament LED

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Non dimmable gives you several percent more efficiency too.

    Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    Industrial customers are usually billed for low PF in addition to MWH consumed; as such it makes sense for them to balance the costs of better power factor equipment against their own PF correction gear at the utility connection point.

    For residential customers, the utility has typically dealt with poor power factor by installing huge PF correction gear at the substation, however with the roll out of residential smart meters they now have the potential to bill residential customers for low PF. So soon enough it may become relevant to you as well.
    It would be interesting to see what the average power factor of a typical home is these days. Back when everything was incandescent and resistive loads, it was inductive loads like transformers and motors that were an issue. These days with so many switching power supplies (including those in LED bulbs) presenting capacitive loads that will tend to cancel out the reactance of inductive loads. LED and fluorescent lighting is a relatively small percentage of the energy consumption in a typical home and there are still a lot of LPF "wall wart" transformer plugs around. A bigger issue is probably RFI, a few of my older/cheaper LED bulbs emit so much hash that I have to shut them off to pick up some bands on my radio gear.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by James1095 View Post
    It would be interesting to see what the average power factor of a typical home is these days. Back when everything was incandescent and resistive loads, it was inductive loads like transformers and motors that were an issue. These days with so many switching power supplies (including those in LED bulbs) presenting capacitive loads that will tend to cancel out the reactance of inductive loads. LED and fluorescent lighting is a relatively small percentage of the energy consumption in a typical home and there are still a lot of LPF "wall wart" transformer plugs around. A bigger issue is probably RFI, a few of my older/cheaper LED bulbs emit so much hash that I have to shut them off to pick up some bands on my radio gear.
    Probably a different thing altogether, maybe offtopic, but I'd be intersted in seeing what the average power draw is per home compared to 35 years ago, and what the major power suckers are these days, now that burned out incan bulbs and vacuum tubes for TV/monitors are getting rare. Wallwarts/line lumps have multiplied, and all the things that draw power when they're "off" and not being used. Refrigeration, hot water and AC/heating have become so much more efficent, but they're probably still at the top. Used to be "you can save such and such on your electric bill if you simply just do this and that--" wonder how that's changed. My nephew has an annoying habit of leaving his playstation paused and the flatscreen on when he leaves it for hours on end. I realize flatscreens don't draw a whole lot, but its still annoying to discover this in the morning, having sat there unused all night. Is it me? or are kids these days just like adults with entitlement issues... but retarded? Probably just me. If this derails, plz ignore.
    Last edited by night.hoodie; 03-20-2015 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Some flatscreens are not nearly as energy efficient as people think. The new LED backlit LCDs are reasonably efficient but my friend had an older CCFL backlit 37" LCD TV that was rated 220W and that's actually higher than the 200W of my ancient 56" CRT rear projection set. Plasmas were even higher, many around 350W. A bigger issue with paused images for any phosphor based display is screen burn. CRT projection and plasma sets are the most susceptible and I used to see a lot of them with those stupid network logos burned into the corner.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by James1095 View Post
    Some flatscreens are not nearly as energy efficient as people think. The new LED backlit LCDs are reasonably efficient but my friend had an older CCFL backlit 37" LCD TV that was rated 220W and that's actually higher than the 200W of my ancient 56" CRT rear projection set.
    That's not a fair comparison. With them both side by side, the flat panel would have been much brighter than the CRT. So while it may have used more power, it was still more efficient on a W/lm metric.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Filament LED

    These are not light fixtures, they're TV sets. It doesn't make sense to measure them in lumens per Watt when what matters is that they're bright enough to watch, and the power they consume under actual use. The CRT projection TV is surprisingly bright though, I can watch it under normal room illumination although the brightness does drop when you view it off-axis but this is a BIG set, there aren't many(any?) 56"+ CCFL LCD to compare to. LCD panels are transmissive displays and most of the light produced by the backlight is wasted, even displaying a solid white screen a majority of the light is blocked. CRTs are emissive displays and don't waste energy lighting up dark parts of the screen. If you want a more direct comparison, let's compare the 27" Sony Trinitron TV in my basement. It draws about 160 Watts on average, varying with what's on the display. It's 4:3 so the screen area is similar to a 32" LCD and it produces a noticeably brighter picture than any CCFL backlit LCD I've seen. For comparison there's an older Sharp LC-32D62U 32" LCD here at work that says on the back 160 Watts, so roughly identical to that of the old Sony CRT.

    Now I'm not saying flat panels don't have advantages, and indeed the latest generation of LED backlit LCDs are quite a bit more efficient but a large number of the flat panel sets out there are not really any more efficient than CRTs, many are less. There's a general perception that flat panels are universally energy efficient and "green" but that simply isn't true.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by James1095 View Post
    These are not light fixtures, they're TV sets. It doesn't make sense to measure them in lumens per Watt when what matters is that they're bright enough to watch, and the power they consume under actual use.
    You're right that depending on the circumstances, the brightness will not be an issue. If you're watching a TV in a dark room, you're probably not going to have it on full brightness compared to very bright room during mid-day. And you are also correct on the LCD blocking much of the light (so a term like "efficiency" greatly depends on the average picture level of what you're looking at). But in the same vein, it's also extremely misleading to just do a straight comparison of the rated power input to both. A CCFL can be dimmed, and so it's also just as unlikely that it will be running at full power much of the time as well. I'm merely pointing out that a controlled side-by-side comparison of a CRT and CCFL LCD would be needed to determine how well each compares.

    For the record, I happen to agree with you for the older TVs: Just based on this 2005 comparison, and computing some numbers from their spec sheets, anything above an APL of ~25% favors the LCD for efficiency (for the same size TV). However, the average APL of a movie or TV show is about 15% (and this also assumes both are on maximum brightness, which may not be desirable in some cases).

    Anyways, this is all moot since LEDs have reached the point where it's not even close now (new TV power consumption is less than 40% of what a new 2005 flat panel was), and OLEDs will significantly improve any image/power deficiencies that LCD has left.

    Sorry to everyone for derailing the thread :P
    Last edited by CoveAxe; 03-24-2015 at 04:47 PM.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by night.hoodie View Post
    If this derails, plz ignore.
    yeah, it did...
    Mag-Lite 3AA LED, Mag-Lite 2AA LED, ROV Sportsman 1w Headlamp, Inova Radiant AA, Fenix TK41, Streamlight Junior LED

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I haven't really used my filament LED for anything yet. I mostly bought it out of curiosity as I enjoy looking at unusual lamp technologies. Maybe I'll turn it into some sort of desk ornament lamp. Is anyone else using them for general lighting?

  10. #70

    Default Re: Filament LED

    The ones I ordered showed up yesterday. They are neat looking and they seem to be quite efficient. The light quality is not impressive though, there's no way these are 90+ CRI and they produce very distinct banding effects. Stripes of white light alternating with stripes of brownish yellowish light. I can see them being useful for decorative lighting but it's not something I'd use for general illumination.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Saw these filament bulbs at LOWES today- Feit brand, 3-4 different styles all priced under $20 2 year guarantee. 2200K

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Qship1996 View Post
    Saw these filament bulbs at LOWES today- Feit brand, 3-4 different styles all priced under $20 2 year guarantee. 2200K
    Same here. I picked up the middle-sized "60w" bulb. It has a slight gold coloring on the bulb envelope and a fake exhaust nipple on the top. The color of the filaments is a slightly deeper orange than the one that I ordered online. Color temp is quite golden yellow, very much like a dim incandescent lamp. It seems a little too yellow for general use, so this is more of a decorative accent lamp.
    Last edited by PhotonWrangler; 03-26-2015 at 04:16 PM.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I bought the same Feit as Photonwrangler. I too wonder how long these can last, seeing as these are:

    1. Almost as lightweight as incans - good for those concerned about hanging an extra few pounds of heatsink on their ceiling fans

    2. Flicker free

    3. Competitively efficient (70 lm/w and probably close to 100lm/w without the amber coating)

    4. Inexpensive

    5. Dimmable

    There has to be a catch somewhere. I'm using mine as evening illumination in my office when not working, see how it holds up.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotonWrangler View Post
    I haven't really used my filament LED for anything yet. I mostly bought it out of curiosity as I enjoy looking at unusual lamp technologies. Maybe I'll turn it into some sort of desk ornament lamp.
    That describes me as well. I buy the LED bulb, and then I try to see where in my house I can put it so it can be used.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuke View Post
    I bought the same Feit as Photonwrangler. I too wonder how long these can last, seeing as these are:

    1. Almost as lightweight as incans - good for those concerned about hanging an extra few pounds of heatsink on their ceiling fans

    2. Flicker free

    3. Competitively efficient (70 lm/w and probably close to 100lm/w without the amber coating)

    4. Inexpensive

    5. Dimmable

    There has to be a catch somewhere. I'm using mine as evening illumination in my office when not working, see how it holds up.
    Have you measured the flicker?

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have you measured the flicker?
    (Digs out solar cell, alligator clips and headphones)...

    Getting slightly less audible hum from the filament bulb than a Cree 75w equivalent LED bulb, so there is a little bit of flicker. I can't see it visually though.

    One thing worth noting: the packaging on the Feit bulb claims "60 watt equivalent" and 309 lumens at 4 watts. Thus at around 75 lumens watt, it's somewhat less efficient than a Cree or Philips "60 watt" bulb which typically puts out around 800 lumens. However this bulb is something that you buy for it looks more than it's brightness.
    Last edited by PhotonWrangler; 03-27-2015 at 05:53 PM.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have you measured the flicker?
    I don't have a photodiode setup, but I am really good at perceiving flicker and PWM, and I have several LED lights with perceptible ripple for comparison. The Feit flicker is, to me, imperceptible.

    I also have another method of checking: I can use my Iphone 5s camera in 120Hz mode, with an app that lets me lock the exposure. Line frequency is "off" by enough that 60/120 flickering sources will slowly pulse in the video.

    I just tested this with three lights: a nightlight with 60Hz halfwave flicker, an LED bulb with subtle 120hz flicker that I can perceive, and the filament Feit.

    The first two are obvious. The Feit, as it turns out, has a flicker, but it's barely visible, even by comparison with a DC source (flashlight) - I'd say less than a 1/3 stop variation.

    Those of you with Iphone 6 have the advantage of 240Hz cams, which will show the flicker every other frame; you will need a camera app that lets you control exposure, or at least lets you lock it.

    I wouldn't be surprised to find that the flicker varies a lot with these and that I have an anomalously stable unit.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Forgot to add that the power factor on this measured 0.62 on my Kill-a-Watt.

  19. #79
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    Lightbulb Free Flicker tester app from Viso Systems for iOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuke View Post
    Those of you with Iphone 6 have the advantage of 240Hz cams, which will show the flicker every other frame; you will need a camera app that lets you control exposure, or at least lets you lock it.
    And also the advantage of an free flicker measurement app:
    visosystems.com/products/flicker-tester/

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Free Flicker tester app from Viso Systems for iOS

    Interesting app, but doesn't instill much confidence. I calibrate the flicker freq to 120 Hz, as instructed, but it 'measures' a freq that seems pretty random... The flicker index measurement it returns is highly dependent on exactly where you point the camera.

    on edit...
    Alright, so I've tinkered with this app some more. It seems decent. It definitely needs you to put a diffuser (piece of white paper works best for me) over your camera lens. The way this thing measures flicker is that it apparently calculates the average brightness of the bright and dark bands in the image and calculates some sort of bright-to-dark ratio. But it's not a very complex algorithm, and if the scene the camera sees is at all defined, that is, not a total blur, the flicker reading goes wild, as it begins to report the difference between bright and dark areas in the image.

    The flicker frequency reading is generally out-of-whack, but who cares - the flicker is almost always 120 Hz (in the US anyway).

    So, all in all, a decent app... Thanks angerdan for your post!

    Some readings:

    Old-style Glass Globe Cree 60W 50%
    Cree TW 60W 25%
    Cree 4-Flow 60W 30%
    Polaroid non-dimmable 60W 65%
    Ecosmart PAR30 -too low to measure
    60W incandescent 10%
    T8 fluorescent on electronic ballast - too low to measure
    Old CFL 10%
    Old Sylvania A19 LED 60%
    6W Chinese Filament LED bulb - too low to measure
    Last edited by brickbat; 03-30-2015 at 09:49 AM. Reason: post-tinkering update
    Jim

  21. #81

    Default Re: Filament LED

    I wonder where they get the 309 Lumens = 60W equivalent? Must be comparing to carbon filament incandescent?

    A friend of mine bought that same lamp at Lowes. The thing that bugs me about most of these vintage style lamps, incandescent included is that the nub on the end looks nothing at all like the exhaust pip it attempts to emulate. I think it would look better with a smooth top than that fake bump.

  22. #82
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Fun with LED filaments -


  23. #83
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotonWrangler View Post
    Fun with LED filaments -
    that is slick! I love the 7 segment display!
    Nice to see some detail on how those filaments are constructed too.

  24. #84
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve K View Post
    that is slick! I love the 7 segment display!
    Nice to see some detail on how those filaments are constructed too.

    Yeah that is a cool video alright! I ordered some filaments off ebay after watching the video.

  25. #85
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    I want to build that 3D cube!

  26. #86

    Default Re: Filament LED

    That looks fascinating!

  27. #87

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Canuke View Post
    I bought the same Feit as Photonwrangler. I too wonder how long these can last.....

    An interesting question... I put a filament LED into a long term test and the 1st reading suggests the life will be OK. [different source than the Feit, but I presume somewhat similar construction]


  28. #88

    Default Re: Filament LED

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Have you measured the flicker?
    Unfortunately, most LED filament bulbs appear to have flicker. Apparently there is not enough room in the bulb for the electronics to smooth out the waveform, or at least that's my guess. I suspect these LED filaments are running directly off the outlet voltage, after only being passed through a current limiting resistor and bridge rectifier. Each filament consists of a string of many tiny LEDs, so they do not necessarily need lower voltages.

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Filament LED

    ^^ wrong. The one I tested (no-name Chinese lamp) had virtually no flicker. So, let's not over-generalize...
    Jim

  30. #90

    Default Re: Filament LED

    most of the a19 bulbs i saw reviewed had a smoothing capacitor and no flicker. i think the candelabra bulbs with very tiny pcbs do flicker badly. that sucks and i hope nice places dont use the flickering ones or that would be bad. people could get head aches and stuff.

    sent from annoying ipod

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