The need for Federal fines for shill & fake review losers!!

orbital

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Not only fines for the company,, but fines for every fake review done by internet losers.
So if John Dork made 2000 fake reviews, fine him $10 for each if he comes forward with every review made.
$100 for each not admitted to and subsequently discovered.

This then includes a revisement of review average and clearly noting the fake reviewer
which then undermines/questions the product or service.


every, meaning every


or


charge him with a form of slander
 
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TEEJ

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Not only fines for the company,, but fines for every fake review done by internet losers.
So if John Dork made 2000 fake reviews, fine him $10 for each if he comes forward with every review made.
$100 for each not admitted to and subsequently discovered.

This then includes a revisement of review average and clearly noting the fake reviewer
which then undermines/questions the product or service.


every, meaning every


or


charge him with a form of slander


There are whole COMPANIES whose business is providing fake reviews.

The reviews can be negative (This product sucks!) or positive (This product is AWESOME!), depending on who the client is.


IE: Slamming a competitor could be "slanderish", while promoting your own would not, that would simply be false advertising, or possibly a form of "wire fraud", etc.

So, if a company hired (HIRED) another company to do the above, the COMPANY(s) should be held responsible.


Making some poor smuck (The best job he could find was writing fake reviews...) go down for it would NOT punish the COMPANY that hired him, those schmucks are mere cannon fodder to them.

Of course, some fake reviews are friends, relatives, or the owner of the company himself, etc.


And then, the grey area, reviews by those who simply are really bad at knowing what's important, so they write a scathing review because a product didn't have some feature they thought it should, ignoring why its excellent (Horns effect)...or, they write a glowing review because they needed to justify to themselves/celebrate their victorious purchase of a normally expensive item for mere pennies, it had some grail feature for them, etc (Halo effect). This group would also include those who were especially lucky or unlucky, such as those who bought a Rollex that ran like a Rolex, or, a Rolex that ran like a Rollex, put the cells in backwards but didn't know it, etc.


And finally, for an individual, you'd need to prove he didn't Get/Have the product he purported to review, and, in court, PROVE he didn't actually have the opinion that he posted. On the stand, a guy could simply INSIST HIS Crapfire 10,000 mah 18650 ran for 5 hours in his Uransusfire Light Bazooka putting out a gazillion lumens, according to his Lumenfire 2000 Professional Tactical Aerospace ALuminum Crust Light Meter.


If a company provides the service of fake reviews...its easier to prove they provided fake reviews. If a company HIRED an entity to provide fake reviews, its easier to prove they hired an entity to provide fake reviews. If some guy not working for one of those entities provides a review that seems fake, as it praises a product that's crap/slams a well made product, etc...its hard to prove he's not merely WRONG, as opposed to committing a fraudulent act. Him never having the product, and of course a money trail between the parties, might be the only reliable clues that he faked it instead of merely being demented, etc.


Making a law (Who's jurisdiction for the web?) that essentially said (End result) that if your review is "wrong" you can be fined...would simply lead to fewer honest reviewers bothering to risk anything for nothing (Fewer honest reviews), and, a now LARGER proportion of REMAINING reviews being bogus, with even more earnest sounding reviews swearing that they are real.

:D
 
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mcnair55

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I would imagine buried deep in some legal book there is already some seldom used piece of law covering such instances.
 

TEEJ

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I would imagine buried deep in some legal book there is already some seldom used piece of law covering such instances.

The problem with laws from the 1700s, etc, (What most of what we inherited comes from) is that they are often not equipped to apply to modern technology in an enforceable way.

IE: Making a false ADVERTISEMENT may be enforceable, but not necessarily a false OPINION.


So, it was almost always illegal to steal, but, the description was too hard to ENFORCE when the stealing became abstract, such as an IDEA, or, involved scenarios not forseen by the white haired wig guy with gavel.


So, the answer is more likely to be a massaging of the existing concept, to make it enforceable.



Enforcement is one of those areas where things are normally the most convoluted, as most of us, logically, have an innate sense of right and wrong, but, when a law is written, it has to have language that decribes what has to happen for the law to be broken, and, the punishments that then apply.


Criminals sometimes find loop holes in that language, and, what seemed obvious/Black & White at the time, can become very grey when new ways of committing crimes are developed.

This is why "Wire Fraud" was added as a crime, to cover what were previously covered in "Theft by Deception" type crimes, that didn't occur face to face/at what most would recognize as a traditional crime scene, etc.
 

orbital

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Having an opinion on a product/service you actually purchased, is one thing,..


being paid/rewarded to make false statements needs to be a type of fraud.






_______________________________________________
 
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TEEJ

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Having an opinion is one thing,


being paid/rewarded to make false statements needs to be a type of fraud.






_______________________________________________



Correct, but enforcement of what WILL BE purported as OPINION, is not enforceable as easily as an ACT.

IE: "But your Honor, I swear that my 10k mah anusfire cells were amazing! I didn't LIE, I was merely WRONG. I see NOW that my opinion was mistaken, and I'll never use a PreparationHfire meter to measure my uransusfire again!"


To be able to ENFORCE a law, you have to be able to PROVE it happened. The presence of payment to someone CAN be proof, unless their job title is "Clerk", or secretary, etc, instead of "Director of False Internet Propaganda", etc....then its just a paycheck, not proof of wrong doing per se. (IE: The check was for showing up at work and sorting email in the email room M-F from 9-5, not for posting false reviews...)

I'd think, in the end, to be enforceable/with teeth, the company the lies benefited would need to be held to the fire as job #1. Job #2 would be the COMPANY that was paid for "Marketing" or "Reputation Defense" whatever they called it. The HARDEST and least productive would be prosecution of the INDIVIDUAL who actually hit the "send button", as those guys are replaceable pawns and in no way inhibit their employers from continuing on their merry way.


I remembered another false review source....online reviewers who are paid to do a review, and they might compare, say, 5 products, including their client's, and simply present their client's product as the "winner", without disclosing that they were paid to do the review, etc. Some of these HAVE been prosecuted.

These are especially sneaky, as they pretend to be either "Suzy Homemaker sharing her findings" or, an "Industry Expert"/"Top Scientist"/"Fellow Enthusiast"...and not paid shills.


The "Fake Review" -

This concept goes back to the old medicine shows, where Dr. Cureall's Snake Juice is being hawked from a wagon as they pass through Pigeonville's marketplace, and someone in the crowd takes the stuff and can suddenly see again, no longer has a headache, etc...convincing the others in the crowd it works.....but the one who can suddenly see again had never actually been blind, and, received something for the act as a "Plant" in the audience.


Back then, if discovered as "Being in on it" the party might be simply hung or stoned or whatever. But, online, that "Plant" is anonymous. There is no way to know who they are/where they are without a very involved investigation of ISP, etc. Some sites don't even store that info...an adm simply pastes the review from an intake form, etc. (Hence the adm can be the only one actually posting anything, etc...)

:D
 

mcnair55

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The problem with laws from the 1700s, etc, (What most of what we inherited comes from) is that they are often not equipped to apply to modern technology in an enforceable way.

IE: Making a false ADVERTISEMENT may be enforceable, but not necessarily a false OPINION.




So, it was almost always illegal to steal, but, the description was too hard to ENFORCE when the stealing became abstract, such as an IDEA, or, involved scenarios not forseen by the white haired wig guy with gavel.


So, the answer is more likely to be a massaging of the existing concept, to make it enforceable.



Enforcement is one of those areas where things are normally the most convoluted, as most of us, logically, have an innate sense of right and wrong, but, when a law is written, it has to have language that decribes what has to happen for the law to be broken, and, the punishments that then apply.


Criminals sometimes find loop holes in that language, and, what seemed obvious/Black & White at the time, can become very grey when new ways of committing crimes are developed.

This is why "Wire Fraud" was added as a crime, to cover what were previously covered in "Theft by Deception" type crimes, that didn't occur face to face/at what most would recognize as a traditional crime scene, etc.


I did not mention the 1700,s and i was thinking more up to date.
 

ElectronGuru

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And then, the grey area, reviews by those who simply are really bad at knowing what's important, so they write a scathing review because a product didn't have some feature they thought it should

I ran into this last year. Customer bought this window AC with special high efficiency heater, not knowing (nothing in the literature actually explains it) it was basically pointless in really cold climates. So I wrote a second review explaining the whole thing. Now the two reviews are presented as best best and best worst, like a political news show:

http://www.amazon.com/Frigidaire-FRA08PZU1-Compact-Window-Conditioner/product-reviews/B004P8K382/

The internet was supposed to provide liberation from from the influence of mass communication. But micro communication has proven just as vulnerable to manipulation by those who earn enough to make it worth while.
 

TEEJ

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I ran into this last year. Customer bought this window AC with special high efficiency heater, not knowing (nothing in the literature actually explains it) it was basically pointless in really cold climates. So I wrote a second review explaining the whole thing. Now the two reviews are presented as best best and best worst, like a political news show:

http://www.amazon.com/Frigidaire-FRA08PZU1-Compact-Window-Conditioner/product-reviews/B004P8K382/

The internet was supposed to provide liberation from from the influence of mass communication. But micro communication has proven just as vulnerable to manipulation by those who earn enough to make it worth while.

Perfect example.

:D

The issue with the internet as a venue to provide liberation from "mass media" is that is then provides a venue for mass media.


Some topics are just too complicated for someone with no background to really understand.

Savvy advertisers/marketeers realize that, and strive to "Simplify" the selection criteria. As most humans have trouble keeping more than about 3 criteria in a weighable context at the same time, THREE selection criteria are the most often chosen.

A good example is the "Good Better Best" options when you say get to the tire store (Sears, PepBoys, etc...). They will list a few attributes under each of the Good better best categories, say, mileage warranty/treadwear, heat resistance and wet traction....(Price of course is in lock step with good better best...) so that the consumer can focus upon those selection criteria, and then make a decision.

The consumer than scrolls across the criteria, and, if all he cares about is how long they last, he chooses the one with the highest treadwear, and so forth. As the criterial are directly derived from the tire makers own ratings (Sidewall data, such as AAA, etc), its an easy chart to make, and, easy for Joe Public to use in a decision process.


The chart will not TELL Joe Consumer/Public/Pigeon that the numbers are somewhat arbitrary, assigned by the maker, and, certainly not that the numbers are not necessarily the most important criteria per se, etc.....it keeps it simple...weigh 3 criteria, pick one, pay the cashier.

:D


In expert witness work - we run into this all the time. NOTHING being discussed is within the experience or knowledge of the Jury, or even the Judge most of the time.

It would be akin to you being in a Jury and two experts testify that in some language you never heard of, one expert "proves" XYZB means love, and the other expert "proves" that XYZB means fealty.....and, the defendant is innocent if it means love, and guilty if it means fealty. Both experts say a bunch of linguistic jargon that includes no words or concepts you are familiar with, both give examples that they say illustrates why they are right and the other side is wrong, and you have to decide who's right.

Most jurors will simply try to gauge who's the most "expert" of the two experts, and, will most likely pick the guy with the nice gray beard and doctorate from Harvard over the clean shaven younger guy from Rutgers, as Harvard and grey beard beats clean shaven from Rutgers in court. (Statistically at least)


One of my favorites was where two experts from Harvard conclusively proved that it was physically impossible for calcium flow within cells (A bio-effect) to be influenced by magnetic fields, and therefore their client (Who happened to be a large entity which sold the masses stuff delivered along routes lined by large magnetic fields...), was NOT causing bio-effects to those exposed.


The side that lost, as it was proved, in court, that calcium flow could NOT be influenced by magnetic fields, took the concept, and developed a system that healed reticent bone fractures, by, yes, influencing the flow of calcium in cells to route calcium into bone fractures to heal them. So, it obviously worked, it healed a lot of fractures that otherwise remained unhealed for even years, and, was proven in court (Harvard/Beards) to not be even possible.

:D
 

Frijid

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I do some regular shopping on amazon a lot, and one time while going over reviews for a product, a lot of people in the review section had said that the company they bought the item from offered them a discount on the product if they left a good review of the product. For the life of me I can't recall what the product was. One thing that irritates me is when people leave negative feedback on something and they didn't use it right. A prime example of something being the fault of the user and not the product. Like for example carbon zinc batteries. I seen on a review once where people gave them largely negative reviews because they would put them in something like a digital camera and they wouldn't last for just a minute or so. In this case, it's the users fault because carbon zince is for a low drain device (and they suck at that) but they are using them in a high drain device. It's like trying to put Ford parts on a Chevy, then saying Ford was junk because their parts won't fit a Chevy.
 

Monocrom

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Such reviews are annoying as Hell.

Thankfully, much of the time, it's easy to spot them. Especially a company or product that has numerous negative reviews, then you see one or two glowing ones. Gee, what could possibly be going on there. :thumbsdow

Also, honest reviews tend to be very detailed in which cons are pointed out as well as pros. Those are the type of reviews I write. Those are also the type of reviews I pay attention to when looking for reviews.
 

markr6

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I do some regular shopping on amazon a lot, and one time while going over reviews for a product, a lot of people in the review section had said that the company they bought the item from offered them a discount on the product if they left a good review of the product. For the life of me I can't recall what the product was. One thing that irritates me is when people leave negative feedback on something and they didn't use it right. A prime example of something being the fault of the user and not the product. Like for example carbon zinc batteries. I seen on a review once where people gave them largely negative reviews because they would put them in something like a digital camera and they wouldn't last for just a minute or so. In this case, it's the users fault because carbon zince is for a low drain device (and they suck at that) but they are using them in a high drain device. It's like trying to put Ford parts on a Chevy, then saying Ford was junk because their parts won't fit a Chevy.

Same here. And I even use Amazon just for the reviews when I'm purchasing locally or from another online seller. The "1000 people can't be wrong" method. I've always had a positive experience because it's usually easy to spot the junk reviews.

I really hate the idiots that leave 1 star due to shipping or other unrelated issues.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Making a law (Who's jurisdiction for the web?) that essentially said (End result) that if your review is "wrong" you can be fined...would simply lead to fewer honest reviewers bothering to risk anything for nothing (Fewer honest reviews), and, a now LARGER proportion of REMAINING reviews being bogus, with even more earnest sounding reviews swearing that they are real.

:D

Strangely, in some countries, the national legal code in effect on the web is:

Wherever it's viewed! So if I write that TEEJ is a scallywag, anybody reading this in Britain may implicate me in the harsher libel laws there... While that's legal in the US. Crazy, eh?
 

Frijid

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I really hate the idiots that leave 1 star due to shipping or other unrelated issues.

Also, the people who get a bad seller, and give the item one star and complain about the seller being bad. When the reviews are not for the seller, they are for the item. I've seen a lot also give an item 3 stars and comment that they haven't used the item yet, but it looks well made, or something similar.
 

Overclocker

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how about slamming manufacturers who put out fake lumens claims, fake runtime graphs, and fake features as well?
 

mcnair55

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how about slamming manufacturers who put out fake lumens claims, fake runtime graphs, and fake features as well?

You can bet your last dollar they are covered by the way they measure there claims.An old selling trick still used to this day.Which is greater ? Profit on cost or Profit on return.
 

orbital

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I'v seen commercials on cable targeting small businesses,,
they will set up a web site or F@cebook page, and for a monthly fee will make 'posts' for you.

This is outright saying they will provide fake reviews for $${
 
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mcnair55

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I'v seen commercials on cable targeting small businesses,,
they will set up a web site or F@cebook page, and for a monthly fee will make 'posts' for you.

This is outright saying they will provide fake reviews for $${

Why pay someone $$ when you and your mates can do it for nothing.
 
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