End of Tailcap UI's? Why so many side switches?

Hi guys,

I am looking for a 1000+ lumen 2 CR123a light with a reverse clicky UI. Basically a 4sevens QP2L that hits 1000 lumens without a "burst" mode. Everything I see in that size range has converted to a forward side switch UI like the Fenix PD35 and pretty much everything I have looked at from Eagletac, Sunwayman, Olight, and Zebralight.

Is there something in the circuitry of the tailcap UI that limits lumens output and thus the switch to a forward side switch? A buddy just got the PD35 and is about to sell it because he can't stand the UI on it. It seems the 4sevens has the best UI, but it lacks in the lumens department for this particular wishlist item.

I do think that the 4sevens QP2L-X has adequate lumens, but I would like a 1000 constant lumens if possible.

The PD35 is actually a 2 switch, modes on the side, power on the tail cap.

I can't answer your question (though I assume the answer is "no") but I will say, I'm much preferring the side switch UI on my SC62C to the tail cap switch on my D25Cvn. Just seems a more natural position (for me) So it may just be consumer preference (if not yours) and not some technical issue. Of course a lot of these things just go in cycles, so tail cap UIs may be back in vogue in a year or two.

Ken

Not an expert, but I understand ~1k lms is the current limit for a single XML. Step downs will be required due to heat build up on compact lights. Get a bigger light with more mass and heat sinking capability (and more battery power) and you can run ~1k lms sustained.

Neither electronic nor mechanical clickies should be a limitation at this Amp level, but I believe electronic switch lights can actually handle more Amps on really powerful lights since the primary electrical power path is separate from the switch electrical path. Electronic clickies also have more UI options and opportunities for stuff like battery meters.

Personally, I prefer mechanical clickies for the simplicity and the easier user serviceability, repairability and at least field by-passability. I still read about too many electronic clicky failures and problems and the only way to fix them is to send it back.

You lost me. Lol.

So you are saying the side switch is inherently more reliable than a tail cap switch?

And that lights the size of the foursevens can't mechanically sustain the heat due to heat sinking capabilities and therefore are already pretty maxed out for the form factor?

ETA - I just reread it for the forth time. So the tail cap switch (mechanical) is more reliable but the side switch (electronic) can potentially handle higher power since it's not handling the main power as well. That said, do you think electronic switches are the trend because of more possibilities? I think the foursevens and older fenix style UI is far superior. Tight for max and strobe. Loose for all modes with a lowest setting start each time. I hate the mode memory thing in the cheap lights and now the electronic switch lights.

reppans said:

Not an expert, but I understand ~1k lms is the current limit for a single XML. Step downs will be required due to heat build up on compact lights. Get a bigger light with more mass and heat sinking capability (and more battery power) and you can run ~1k lms sustained.

Neither electronic nor mechanical clickies should be a limitation at this Amp level, but I believe electronic switch lights can actually handle more Amps on really powerful lights since the primary electrical power path is separate from the switch electrical path. Electronic clickies also have more UI options and opportunities for stuff like battery meters.

Personally, I prefer mechanical clickies for the simplicity and the easier user serviceability, repairability and at least field by-passability. I still read about too many electronic clicky failures and problems and the only way to fix them is to send it back.

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SoldMyHat said:

So you are saying the side switch is inherently more reliable than a tail cap switch?

And that lights the size of the foursevens can't mechanically sustain the heat due to heat sinking capabilities and therefore are already pretty maxed out for the form factor?

Click to expand...

Yes to both questions.

I actually really like both types, depending on how they are implemented. There is no guarantee you won't have problems with either kind of switch...but electronic switches should be less likely to fail, if they are made properly. Clickies wear out, no matter what. Any physical switch with springs and movement WILL die eventually, it is just a matter of time. And given that physical switches have to carry the current, it does limit your options for very high-powered lights.

Might I suggest your buddy check out the Nitecore SRT7? No stepdown, not quite 1000 lumens but in the ballpark. It has a forward clicky for power, and a magnetic ring for mode switching. Out of 30 or so lights I have tried recently, I think it is my favorite interface. Can do any mode switching you want quickly, from on or off. Hard to complain about that...

SoldMyHat said:

And that lights the size of the foursevens can't mechanically sustain the heat due to heat sinking capabilities and therefore are already pretty maxed out for the form factor?

ETA - I just reread it for the forth time. So the tail cap switch (mechanical) is more reliable but the side switch (electronic) can potentially handle higher power since it's not handling the main power as well. That said, do you think electronic switches are the trend because of more possibilities? I think the foursevens and older fenix style UI is far superior. Tight for max and strobe. Loose for all modes with a lowest setting start each time. I hate the mode memory thing in the cheap lights and now the electronic switch lights.

Click to expand...

Yup, I think the lightweight Quark-sized lights are maxed out with the current LED technology for heat dissipation. Keep in mind 47s will under drive its lights more than some manuf. are willing, because they've made a promise to fix them for a long time. There's many small lights that will go direct drive on Li-ions and simply burn up over time if you run max for extended periods. Pretty sure future technology will bring us greater LED efficiency though, (ie, more lumens at cooler temps).

Yup, also think there will be an increasing trend toward e-clickies because you can do more with them - fancier UIs, batt. meters, indicator lights. And yup, as the Doc said, e-clickies don't have to carry the full Amp load of very powerful lights (which can lead to arcing problems) - e-switches just use a minuscule side branch of power, which brings the parasitic drain.

Just anecdotally (from reading failure posts), I believe mechanical clickies are more mature and more reliable with less complexity. I find it interesting that some of the dedicated e-switch manufacturers break from the relatively industry standard 2-yr warranty and will only stand behind their product for 1-yr. I have no data on which is more reliable, but I know I can easily and cheaply service, repair, or replace my Quark clicky... Or just by-pass it with the tinfoil I carry in my wallet. My e-clicky lights will be dead in the water.

I'm with you on the Quark Pro UIs - they're my favorite, but for a different reason. I happen to LOVE its single-handed momentary max from ON "feature" (work-around).

Thanks! I appreciate everyone's insights on the matter!

I was reading on another thread while I was digging for answers myself, and they stated that ANSI only requires a light to be able to maintain a certain max lumen output for 30 seconds. That said, some of these 1000 lumen lights may have similar step downs such as the burst mode on the 4sevens. Seems maybe 4sevens is just trying to be honest about it, and provide a more dependable light. I can get behind that in a company. I also have a thing for sub-lumens, and they are one of the few to still keep that feature in the UI.

Tailclicky often means you have to change grip to change modes while walking. Most pepole walk with the hands down, your tumbs points forwards. With a tail clicky you have to spin the light around for your tumb to hit the tail. Or walk with a overhand grip where you hold the light high next to your ear. Not a great way to carry on a long hike With a side switch, your tumb is on the switch when you walk with your hands down. I prefer the old mecanical tailswitch and twist the head to change modes. No parasitic drain, and i can change modes while walking with my hands down. All eletronic switces got parasitic drain.

jorn said:

All eletronic switces got parasitic drain.

Click to expand...

For most lights with electronic switches, I don't think parasitic drain is a concern. I measured the drain on my Zebralight SC52's at only 20 microamps. At that rate, it would take over 11 years to drain the AA battery. If that rate is still a concern, you can always lock-out the light by slightly loosening the tailcap.

I like both tail and side switches, depending on the application of the light. For tactical lights, a tail switch makes a lot of sense. For larger lights, a side switch is much more convenient. Mechanical switches have a nice tactile feel to them. Electronic switches allow for a greater variety of programmable options.

I know about the tailcap lockout. I use it all the time on my favorite headlamp. The zebra h51fc. The drain is not my biggest consern. Some got more drain than others. But the switch is so easy to press that it can easy turn on in a stuffed backpack. But then you have a "twisty clicky". harder to use than a regular twisty

I'm mixed on which I prefer. My favourite UI so far is on the Olight M10. Momentary, high and strobe from the tailcap, but also switching from the side. Mode memory is great with a side switch, though I hate it at the moment with just a tailcap switch.

Just got a Nailbender Nichia dropin and it's quite annoying figuring out what'll pop up next with memory.

I have always found the UI-via-power-switch to be a tad finicky. Lights never seem to handle the timing consistently. A shame since it's otherwise a better way to do things from a usage perspective (hit one button for everything). But I don't necessarily dislike the mode switch either - its consistency mitigates the inconvenience.

WalkIntoTheLight said:

For most lights with electronic switches, I don't think parasitic drain is a concern. I measured the drain on my Zebralight SC52's at only 20 microamps. At that rate, it would take over 11 years to drain the AA battery. If that rate is still a concern, you can always lock-out the light by slightly loosening the tailcap..

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Generally true, except for when they go bad.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?379726-ZL-H60-high-standby-draw

Also, the SC52's parasitic draw is in months on 14500s (which is a likely event for me with this light).

reppans said:

Generally true, except for when they go bad.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?379726-ZL-H60-high-standby-draw

Also, the SC52's parasitic draw is in months on 14500s (which is a likely event for me with this light).

Click to expand...

And if a electronic switch fails, throw the light in the garbage. I cant fix or replace one. Most mechanical tail switches are cheap and easy to replace. I dont like the new trend with high tec ui, displays and stuff. Imo, the simpler the better.

There is a limit to the easier to fix argument..

To me, - personal opinion - a tail click only has that tactical appear, it's something cool, like a computer tower with fancy blue LEDs.. But once I get into the lights I soon realize what I usually need is a side click, and a black PC tower so it won't blind me during the night..

Or maybe it's just a trend..

LlF said:

There is a limit to the easier to fix argument..

Click to expand...

Pleace explain.

I cant even find a spare electronic swich that fits a zebralight or lf2XT, or any of my lights with a electronic one. It it fails, i cant fix it. And im the type of person that love to fix my own stuff. Mod my own lights etc.

Interesting... what appears to be two more electronic switch failures - a Nitecore P12 and Klarus XT11.

I'm sure these failure posts represent a tiny minority of electronic clickies out there, but mechanical clickies must out number electronic clickies by ~ 10:1, yet I can't recall reading about many (any?) mechanical clicky failures that couldn't be fixed by simply tightening the retaining disk with needle nosed pliers.

That said, I don't think there's any stopping the migration over to e-switches - I just think a few bugs need to be worked out first .

jorn said:

Tailclicky often means you have to change grip to change modes while walking. Most pepole walk with the hands down, your tumbs points forwards. With a tail clicky you have to spin the light around for your tumb to hit the tail. Or walk with a overhand grip where you hold the light high next to your ear. Not a great way to carry on a long hike With a side switch, your tumb is on the switch when you walk with your hands down. I prefer the old mecanical tailswitch and twist the head to change modes. No parasitic drain, and i can change modes while walking with my hands down. All eletronic switces got parasitic drain.

Click to expand...

A cigar grip works quite well with rear clickies for arms-down/under-handed carry for walking/hiking. Even better, if you cigar-grip between your pinkie and ring fingers, you'll have your three most important fingers completely free, call it 2/3rds hands free with still easy access to the clicky. Great for dog walking while juggling leashes and pop bags . That said, it's not going to work well with large, heavy, multi-cell lights.

If you go back to the early torches we grew up with(old gits like me anyway) side switch were the way they were and many children,s torches of today are still side switch.

Thinking about different things i have owned over the years from radios to everything else you can think of i have had more failures with electronic switches than mechanical.

And who remembers the slide switch on audio systems that suffered badly from noise once you had let the dust in.?

WalkIntoTheLight said:

For most lights with electronic switches, I don't think parasitic drain is a concern. I measured the drain on my Zebralight SC52's at only 20 microamps. At that rate, it would take over 11 years to drain the AA battery. If that rate is still a concern, you can always lock-out the light by slightly loosening the tailcap.

Click to expand...

My Zebralight H31 will drain the battery within a week if I forget to lock out the tailcap.