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Thread: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

  1. #31
    Flashaholic JP Labs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Been reading more build threads.....saw a post from get-lit hinting that Philips MSR Gold lamps might be worth looking at. So, I did. Well, it turns out they are universal position, with special crimps which make them more tolerant of running hot. They are HID MH type lamps with ~5mm arc length. 300W delivers ~22k Lumens. But the only listed ballast on Philips' site is an obscure German one.

    Does anybody know if the universal digital MH ballasts can strike and run these?
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I'm still enjoying your posts and wish I could contribute more but I've never found a way to buy reasonably priced lamp and ballast sets anywhere so I've never set out to build my own light.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Thanks for letting me know the posts are still at least somewhat interesting. They have deteriorated more towards indecisive ramblings, I know. I think I will just stumble around the web until my learning curve intersects my 'remaining patience' curve. At that point, I will impulsively buy something and try it. I am spending too many hours reading, and not enough building. Stuck.

    I'll get back to pictures and action, eventually!
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-06-2014 at 04:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    deleted post.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    found a working Oriel 50 - 200 power supply for less than $200 on Ebay. It's for Xenon and Mercury Xenon

    ww.ebay.com/itm/ORIEL-68805-UPS-UNIVERSAL-ARC-LAMP-POWER-SUPPLY-40-200W-PSU-REGULATED-/291236077736?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43cf05 e0a8

    This operates the same as my 450-1000 (which is really 350 to 1200 Watt) You preset the Watts or Amps you want by pushing in the small middle black button and using the black rotary knob to set your level on the meter. Release the preset button and you're free to start the lamp by pushing the smaller start button over on the left. Once running, the supply is infinitely adjustable by simply turning the larger black rotary knob. It's a very nice older linear style PS.

    "Short Arc Lamp" search on Ebay and then sort by lowest price first yields lots of sub $100, even some sub $50, new, 200 Watt Mercury/Xenon lamps. Many by Advanced Radiation Corp (my obsolete lamp supplier) Be sure to investigate to make sure they are not UV-specific lamps.
    Last edited by BVH; 09-06-2014 at 08:13 PM.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

  6. #36
    Flashaholic JP Labs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Thanks BVH! Every time I get tired of talking to myself here, you chime in and remind me I am not alone in this.

    I had seen a few PS like the one you posted. It does look like a good supply, perfect really. However, I think that power supply requires an external ignitor, doesn't it?

    I thought it prudent to find an ignitor first, since that seems to be the rarest and most expensive component. That is the part I have been having a hard time finding. Do you have an ignitor, too, or do you DIY that part? I do have Neon transformers and furnace ignitions that can make an arc, but am a little hesitant to play with the lethal HV and inject it into the power supply, for fear of killing it or me.

    Note to future readers of this thread: I know ebay links are not great for documenting thread content because they expire. It is not helpful to read an old thread and not be able to see the details of posted auctions that are gone, so I have noted the prices and general descriptions below to try to keep some utility in the info.
    --

    Here's a similar one that went for $140 yesterday:
    Oriel 68700 Analog Display 100W/200W Xe Hg Selection Arc Lamp Supply Unit
    ww.ebay.com/itm/111453399366?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageNa me=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
    --

    Here's the least expensive Oriel ignitor I am currently watching. $452, too steep for me I think, but does come with a lamp housing that would have some utility for mounting parts etc. A lamp housing alone went for about $50 last week, so I don't think that is a large part of the value here:
    Oriel Arc Lamp & Arc Lamp Ignitor 660055 SVGA 68705 working
    ww.ebay.com/itm/310448805023?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageNa me=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    --

    This is the cheapest complete running setup I have found, an HBO200 microscope illuminator. Did not sell for $400. Non-adjustable PS. OLD!
    Carl Zeiss Binocular Microscope Lamp Housing HBO 200/4 Base + Power Supply
    ww.ebay.com/itm/271590115028?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageNa me=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I have been reading all I can find about the Philips MSR-SA lamps. These are Metal Halide HID Short Arc lamps. Documentation says they 'are best on electronic ballasts but will work on magnetic ballast with an ignitor'. That implies to me that perhaps a typical MH electronic ballast would work. Such a ballast can be had for about $100, if it would work. However, the MSR-SA lamps list 'up to max 20s starting duration' under ballast specs, and most of these MH ballasts only apply HV starting for a few seconds. So, not sure they would work. But I really like the universal operating position, the robust pinch design for high temp running (500C ends, 1000C envelope) and the fact that they are single ended (both electrodes on same end) but have a traditional axial arc orientation. I would like to run one in 400W power if I can. 30,000 Lumens, 3mm arc. Pretty sure these are intended for AC operation, not DC, so would not have sharpest illuminance profile, but a LOT better than the AC HID I am using as baseline for my project.

    Here is the product spec sheet for the MSR SA lamps:
    https://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/Philip..._specsheet.pdf

    EDIT: This is the brand recommended by Philips for ballasts for the MSR lamps (non-short arc versions are just called MSR, not MSR SA), but they do not seem to specify if MSR SA works on same ballasts. Schiederwerk. Even sounds expensive. I can't tell if these operate substantially differently from other MH electronic balasts (cheaper ones!).
    http://www.schiederwerk.de/index.php...ronic-ballasts

    Here are two MSR 400 SA lamps for $125. New ones are about $120/ea or less from lamp stores. Not too bad, if they can use a cheap ballast:
    ww.ebay.com/itm/MSR-400-Sa-Bulb-Short-Arc-Phillips-Two-Of-Them-One-Price-/301213544681?pt=US_Stage_Lighting_Replacement_Bulb s_Lamps&hash=item4621b9f0e9

    Here's a 400W MH electronic ballast for $75:
    400w HPS MH GROW LIGHT Digital ELECTRONIC Dimming Ballast DIMMABLE 400 W WATT

    ww.ebay.com/itm/400w-HPS-MH-GROW-LIGHT-Digital-ELECTRONIC-Dimming-Ballast-DIMMABLE-400-W-WATT-/380866780593?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item58ad6dddb1
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 10:35 PM. Reason: corrected lumens from 40k to 30k. Corrected $400 to 400W.
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Too bad I am limiting my power to 500W or less for off grid running with car power. Or I could maybe be done with this search.

    Here is a possible deal for somebody who might be following this, thinking of a similar project...a 1200W Schiederwerk ballast for $200!

    I cannot confirm this is an appropriate combination due to the lack of specific SA notes on the ballast, so that is still an open question.

    The MSR SA Gold 1200W lamps are double ended, beautiful, and can be had for only about $130 new. Somebody can have 102,000 Lumens in a 7mm arc!

    --

    Here's that lamp spec sheet:
    http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/928175305115_eu/928175305115_eu_pss_aenaa.pdf


    --

    Here is the ballast spec, listing MSR as appropriate, but again, not specifically the MSR SA:
    http://www.schiederwerk.de/index.php...vg-12-12-ac-sl
    --



    Here's the ballast:
    Schiederwerk PVG 12-12 AC SL Electronic Ballast, 115/230VAC, 47-63Hz, 1200W

    ww.ebay.com/itm/Schiederwerk-PVG-12-12-AC-SL-Electronic-Ballast-115-230VAC-47-63Hz-1200W-/331276943878?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d21a5 0206

    -----------

    Bill in Idaho, this might be nice for your project?
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 10:48 AM. Reason: added note to bill
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Too bad you're not closer. I just bought a most likely new and unused, old stock Oriel 69920 which is the newer switch mode 450-1000 Watt model of the Linear Supply model I have now. I went to use the Linear supply yesterday and did not remember that it must weigh 50-60 lbs which is not good for my weak back. I have a complete 450-1000 Watt lamp housing with ignitor and the OEM connection cables for the Linear unit. I am hoping that the ignitor will work with the new PS but the connection cable is different and the wiring pinout description is different. Where the old ignitor I have gets a 35khz pulse to activate it, the newer ballast (I don't have) says it gets a momentary ground. I know that does not necessarily make them different but I am not sure I know enough to test it out. I would think they would be the same. If not, I will be looking for a lamp housing with ignitor and as you say, they are expensive.

    Long story short, I will probably sell the Linear and lamp housing with ignitor and they will work down to 350 Watts. But I don't look forward to shipping it. This heavy stuff is a pain to ship without damage. And you're limiting your power so this doesn't fit the bill anyway.

    The linked ballast and some lamps do sound perfect for Bill of Idaho. Bill, are you listening.....? I just sent Bill a PM with a link to your post.
    Last edited by BVH; 09-07-2014 at 10:50 AM.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    OK, finally, a little build progress worthy of pictures. I tried a 175W Mercury Vapor lamp in the light last night, but as expected, with a ~50mm arc length, it was terrible. No pics of that, imagine a 120degree wall of light.

    But, I worked more on the light baffle. Used my cellphone camera this time, sorry.

    Started with a chunk of 18" Sonotube:


    I peeled off the inside waxed paper layer and painted it flat black. This left a nice textured, non-glare surface. Wrapped it in aluminum flashing:


    Front 3/4 view. This stops side and rear spill, allows airflow to exit around lens, and would block rain pretty well, too:


    To mount it, I glued wood blocks to the tube ID such that they sit on the lens' metal surround ring, then glued Rare Earth magnets to the blocks. Sticks well.

    I was going to paint the aluminum black, too, but I am kind of liking the metal finish now. Maybe I just paint the frame black, but leave everything else raw. Or maybe I paint the whole thing in Olive Drab Green. Opinions?
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Not a military light so no OD (in my military purest humble opinion) Flat or light gloss black is what aviation uses and would be nice. I like the raw alum look on the ring.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I have emailed an inquiry to Schiederwerk to confirm these ballasts work for the SA lamps, and ask if ignitors are needed, too. Also asked for a quote.

    BVH, if your PS and ignitor/housing works down to 350W, maybe I could use it portable for 400W lamps, and have mains or generator powered fun at 1000W as a possible upgrade? Shipping is tough, yes. I don't know how the eBay sellers send these things across the country as cheaply as they do. Seems a pallet and freight handling might be needed to keep it intact. If you decide to sell these, keep me in mind.
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 12:02 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Quote Originally Posted by BVH View Post
    Not a military light so no OD (in my military purest humble opinion) Flat or light gloss black is what aviation uses and would be nice. I like the raw alum look on the ring.
    I can respect the no OD colored 'poser' paint scheme opinion. Point noted. Unless I modeled the final configuration after a real Military searchlight, as a tribute of sorts, maybe. 1/3 scale Carbon Arc maybe? Perhaps I should go with a sci-fi death ray scheme? (Kidding. I think.)

    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 12:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I just realized that ez78 used one of the Chinese electronic MH ballasts with a 7mm SA MH lamp in the '400W HID Thor' build. So, maybe running a 3mm SA MH could work. Encouraging. Maybe I will pick up a lamp and ballast to test. Roughly a $200 gamble, still undecided but currently is my leading plan. Part of the risk is running such a ballast from a modified wave type inverter.

    Here is the Thor thread for those who may not be familiar:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-400W-HID-Thor
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-07-2014 at 12:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    This ridiculously long and detailed article about powering motion picture lighting seems to indicate that MH electronic ballasts can generally run from modified sine wave power (like my inverter), especially if the ballasts are power factor corrected. My auto voltage controlled generator should run them, too.

    http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/ht...enerators.html
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Arrrgh, forgot to copy and lost a long post with a ton of ballast, inverter, and power correction info and questions to the Token Expired monster. Funny thing is it hadn't been very long, and the error repeated several times after refreshes. Oh well, I'm not fully recreating that post.

    Very briefly then:

    I re-read the above Theatrical Lighting Power article (allow a couple of hours if you do this) and several other sources, including solar power forums.

    My tentative conclusions:

    1. Electronic MH ballasts are highly reactive loads with leading current, low power factors.
    2. Power Factor Corrected (PFC) SMPS-based ballasts are better for AVC generators than non-PFC versions.
    3. For non PFC electronic MH ballasts, don't exceed about 1/3 of generator capacity. Will tend to overheat circuit, regardless.
    4. Either type should work (degrading this to might, not should) with modified wave inverters if they are lightly loaded.
    5. Don't try to run other devices on the circuit if you plug a non-PFC inverter into it.



    Update:

    Here is what seems to be a respectable source, finally with a specific mention of HID lamps. Of course, they don't mention if the issues are with electronic, or magnetic ballasts. But I think the electronic ones are the ones likely to have issues, due to the bridge/capacitor input power supply that delivers DC for the actual inverter SMPS. This is the source of the distortion harmonics injected back into the power supply. From that source:

    Which devices will not function properly from a Modified Sine-wave Inverter?

    Any device that uses a control circuitry that senses the phase (for voltage / speed control) or instantaneous zero voltage crossing (for timing control) will not work properly from a voltage that has a modified sine wave-form. Also, as the modified sine wave is a form of square wave, it is comprised of multiple sine waves of odd harmonics (multiples) of the fundamental frequency of the modified sine wave. For example, a 60 Hz. modified sine wave will consist of sine waves with odd harmonic frequencies of 3rd (180 Hz), 5th (300 Hz.), 7th (420 Hz.) and so on. The high frequency harmonic content in a modified sine wave produces enhanced radio interference, higher heating effect in motors / microwaves and produces overloading due to lowering of the impedance of low frequency filter capacitors / power factor improvement capacitors.
    Some examples of devices that may not work properly with modified sine wave and may also get damaged are given below:


    • Laser printers, photocopiers, magneto-optical hard drives
    • The built-in clocks in devices such as clock radios, alarm clocks, coffee makers, bread-makers, VCR, microwave ovens etc may not keep time correctly
    • Output voltage control devices like dimmers, ceiling fan / motor speed control may not work properly (dimming / speed control may not function)
    • Sewing machines with speed / microprocessor control
    • Transformer-less capacitive input powered devices like (i) Razors, flashlights, night-lights, smoke detectors etc (ii) Re-chargers for battery packs used in hand power tools. These may get damaged. Please check with the manufacturer of these types of devices for suitability
    • Devices that use radio frequency signals carried by the AC distribution wiring
    • Some new furnaces with microprocessor control / Oil burner primary controls
    • High intensity discharge (HID) lamps like Metal Halide lamps. These may get damaged. Please check with the manufacturer of these types of devices for suitability
    • Some fluorescent lamps / light fixtures that have power factor correction capacitors. The inverter may shut down indicating overload


    http://www.samlexamerica.com/support/faqs/faq02.aspx

    Maybe it would be better to just use a magnetic ballast and ignitor, except I can't find one for these MSR SA lamps.

    Another option may be to modify the inverter to get DC out of it before it's 'inverting section' (another SMPS, I think). Feed that into the ballast, after its 'un-inverting section' (its SMPS). This would avoid the two troublesome middle steps, from DC to AC, and AC to DC again. Some other members have done this. But the voltage would need to match up.

    Universal lab supply and ignitor sure is a nice solution if I can find a reasonable set.
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-08-2014 at 09:12 PM. Reason: add clarity and remove sarcasm
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    Lightbulb Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    OK, enough speculation; I'm sure many of you are getting sick of it, as am I. It is time to do something!

    I just ordered TWO Philips MSR400 SA lamps. One is new, one is open box and appears to be slightly used. The latter will be for initial testing.

    I also ordered one GY9.5 lamp holder, and a 40 mm vaneaxial PC fan with fairly high stall pressure, about 1" WP, to provide some lamp cooling flow through what will more or less be a 5mm concentric slot around the 40 mm diameter lamp base.

    Some of Philips' lamp specs show a minimum required cooling flow. Some do not. MSR SA lamps do NOT. So, I am thinking they may be able to operate un-cooled, but I will try a low level of cooling and see how that works. I can thermocouple the base (250C limit), but not the critical crimp area that destructs at 500C, or the envelope that destructs at 1000C, so it will be a guess at best.

    I did not buy a ballast, yet. I plan to wire up the base and bulb, grab my welding helmet, and take the lot to our local 'indoor garden center' to see if they are willing to try to sell me a MH ballast by attempting to fire my lamp with it.

    Parts should be here in about a week.

    Aside from the danger of injury and fire, if the lamp overheats and bursts, is it likely to seriously damage my reflector surface? I think so, but would love to hear otherwise, if anybody here has experienced such a lamp failure.

    If I actually get the thing running, I think I should stress test it for an hour or two inside something a bit stronger, with only the lamp mount and fan. Maybe in a section of 4" steel chimney tube with a small viewing opening at lamp level. Better to blow it up there, than in my reflector.

    If I use a pinhole in that tube, instead of a viewing hole, it might even project a viewable image of the arc onto paper for monitoring. SA HID Camera Obscura!
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-08-2014 at 11:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Years back I had a 150 Watt lamp let go. It left some major scratches from the big fragments and the entire reflector was heavily orange peeled from the small pieces of Quartz. Pretty much destroyed. I'd definitely test run it like you say, in something else. That is also the beauty of having the lamp housing. That's its' job - a test bed. Good luck with the testing!
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    OK, will do the testing for sure, then! Appreciate the input.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    If you had success with the 100 watt HID, then the 1,200 watt HMI would be decent. Did you look into Jenbo..? Work well on bad sine-wave inverters and poor voltage control circuits.. I've used them for a few years, bulb and ballast with ignitor is:

    - http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo...f14b7411c10653 ballast: $420.00 mailed regular US mail, fits in palm of hand...yes..1,200 watts HMI lightweight.

    - http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Osram..._Jenbo_NSK1200 bulb: $128.25, comes in regular US mail, lightweight.

    I'm working on spinning my own reflectors out of steel and aluminum. Was using fiberglass molded on wax covered, spun concrete.

    the Gorilla 36 inch totally homemade reflector using a Jenbo 1,200 watt HMI bulb and ballast.



    Mummy Mountain mile long beam shot

    Here you can see the top of Mummy Mountain a mile from this parking lot, lit by the Gorilla searchlight.


    Another Day view:

    Mummy Mountain with Lodge, Church and Condo Complex

    Mummy Mountain with Lodge, Church and Condo Complex visible at base.
    Last edited by LightSward; 09-10-2014 at 12:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Thanks for checking in, Lightsward!

    I am quite familiar with your builds; I think I have read every page. That is some inspiring work, developing the form and layup techniques for reflector fabrication. Your lights are awesome. When you need to build a crane to support your light hobby.....

    I've made quite a few things with fiberglass and epoxy. I once cast an epoxy parabola on a record turntable. There are some small concentric ripples, but it worked well for the basic shape. I use it with a microphone. I tried with paraffin, first, but that rippled worse.

    Thanks for the lamp tips. I will look into them, but I think the power level @ 1200W is more than I can run from a vehicle's 12V system.

    EDIT: OK, that was fast and easy. Thanks a LOT for the info about these ballasts working well on dirty power!

    Jenbo has a 400W ballast, a 400W double ended lamp, a 400W single ended lamp, and even a 400W short arc lamp which is listed as an alternate for the Philips MSR 400 SA. That Philips is the lamp I ordered. I expect the Jenbo ballasts should work with their own lamps, so the Jenbo 400W ballast should run lamp, too. Great info.

    Ballast $300:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo_400W_Lamp_Ballast

    400W double ended lamp $104:http://400W double ended lamp:

    400W short arc lamp, single ended $110:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Phili...t_Jenbo_NSK400


    Goals recap:

    I realize I was a little unclear, above, mentioning the 100W HID as a baseline. My testing so far has only been with a 35W HID. My default choice to replace that is a 100W HID. This 100W HID is the 'baseline' I am comparing other lamp options against. I am trying to pick a better lamp system which will significantly outperform that potential 100W HID for beam visibility, without disproportionately increasing the expense - at least not TOO badly. I'm aiming for a power level I can supply from an idling vehicle's 12V alternator. I think that should not be more than 500W lamp power, which might require up to 50A input @12V. Maybe a 575W.
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-10-2014 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Unless total ballast input power is listed, I'd be more conservative and use a factor of 125% to 130% of lamp power. Something closer to 625 Watts for a 500 Watt lamp. IIRC, my Spectrolab Starburst is even higher than that. Of course, I'm talking about Short Arc and not the HMI products - I am not knowledgeable about those.

    Regarding the 100 HID...Do you have a specific ballast/lamp combo you are referencing or is that just a power level you're using as a base reference? If something specific, just be cautious of the claimed power to the lamp. So many of the automotive HID ballasts are producing far less than claimed lamp power. And so far, I have not been able to find an "automotive" HID lamp that would run at 100 Watts and live any where near 1,000 hours.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Understood about the 100W automotive HID, yes. Highest actual power I have seen reported is only 86W to the lamp, estimated Lumens 8000, (stolman, here). That's the type of kit I was considering. But, there is no stepping back to that for my final lamp, now!
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    Party Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Labs View Post
    Thanks for checking in, Lightsward!

    I am quite familiar with your builds; I think I have read every page. That is some inspiring work, developing the form and layup techniques for reflector fabrication. Your lights are awesome. When you need to build a crane to support your light hobby.....

    I've made quite a few things with fiberglass and epoxy. I once cast an epoxy parabola on a record turntable. There are some small concentric ripples, but it worked well for the basic shape. I use it with a microphone. I tried with paraffin, first, but that rippled worse.

    Thanks for the lamp tips. I will look into them, but I think the power level @ 1200W is more than I can run from a vehicle's 12V system.

    EDIT: OK, that was fast and easy. Thanks a LOT for the info about these ballasts working well on dirty power!

    Jenbo has a 400W ballast, a 400W double ended lamp, a 400W single ended lamp, and even a 400W short arc lamp which is listed as an alternate for the Philips MSR 400 SA. That Philips is the lamp I ordered. I expect the Jenbo ballasts should work with their own lamps, so the Jenbo 400W ballast should run lamp, too. Great info.

    Ballast $300:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Jenbo_400W_Lamp_Ballast

    400W double ended lamp $104:http://400W double ended lamp:

    400W short arc lamp, single ended $110:http://www.bestbulbsdirect.com/Phili...t_Jenbo_NSK400


    Goals recap:

    I realize I was a little unclear, above, mentioning the 100W HID as a baseline. My testing so far has only been with a 35W HID. My default choice to replace that is a 100W HID. This 100W HID is the 'baseline' I am comparing other lamp options against. I am trying to pick a better lamp system which will significantly outperform that potential 100W HID for beam visibility, without disproportionately increasing the expense - at least not TOO badly. I'm aiming for a power level I can supply from an idling vehicle's 12V alternator. I think that should not be more than 500W lamp power, which might require up to 50A input @12V. Maybe a 575W.
    Excellent job so far. Like the welded frame work.

    The Jenbo ballast ran all the other brand lamps, just fine..., some 25 years old from West Germany. I have an RV battery the size of automobile battery that will run the 1,200 watt for about ten minutes. I think your idea of using the 500 watt set up sounds reasonable, get 25 minutes run time, more if you leave the engine running...?

    I'm just about ready to begin producing all metal parabolic reflectors in the 20-24 inch range. Have mostly built everything I need. I'm spending extra time on precision this time, more than ever, and have been amazed at my results so far.

    Good work on this so far.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Hang on guys, I ran out of popcorn.........................Tonight I'm going to run out and wipe the dust off the VSS-3 housing and parts, just in case this is my holy grail!

  26. #56
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill, Idaho View Post
    Hang on guys, I ran out of popcorn.........................Tonight I'm going to run out and wipe the dust off the VSS-3 housing and parts, just in case this is my holy grail!
    Bill, what did you think of the ballast above for your VSS? Appropriate at all?
    Fabrication is fun! Build something today. Show someone. Let them help. Inspire and share. Spread the desire.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    It sounds better than anything else that has been mentioned. Changing the batteries in my flashlight pretty well taxes the limit of my electrical know-how, but if the right combo of ballast and bulb appear, as a certified machinist, I'll build whatever I need to. As long as it is a relatively simple plug things together and candlepower happens.....I'm in. 1000 watts would be about right. I believe the fan is still intact, although it might need to be wired, as most of the wiring was yanked out.
    A good poker player never shows his hand, but I'm good up to about $400-500. It sounds like I can stay well within that.

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    No lamps in the mail today. Was hoping.


    As close as I can tell, the MSR 400 SA lamps I ordered are Short Arc Metal Halide lamps with Iodine as the halide. MSR is listed in cross references as Philips' alternative to Osram's HMI lamps, often cataloged under the same 'HMI Lamps' heading. The MSR short arc versions are listed in the same section. HMI lamps have a listed color temp of 5600k, same as the MSR 400 SA.

    I mention this because there isn't a lot if technical info to be found on MSR lamps, but there is quite a bit about MHI lamps. As far as I can tell, the two are technically equivalent. So I am applying what I can find about HMI lamps to my project, until or unless I find that is a poor assumption.

    EDIT: Metal Halide lamps are AC lamps, as opposed to short arc Xenon or mercury lamps like the XBO and HBO - the latter operate on DC. AC inverters are thus required for the MH lamps. AC lamps have symmetrical electrodes, and 2 hot(ter) spots in the arc, one near each electrode. DC lamps have one small (cathode), and one large, (Anode) electrode. And one hot spot in the arc. The metal halides have effectively larger hot spots for a given power level, and also more lumens due to higher efficiency.

    Here are some links with more info about Metal Halide HID lamps. As a new user of the technology, I found them helpful.

    Here is one from Edison Tech Center which describes various types of these lamps, including HMI and Short Arc. (This whole site seems dedicated to explaining electrical technology of all kinds, with plenty on lighting):
    The Metal Halide Lamp - How it works.

    Next one is specific to short arc, and a bit more technical. Good section on hazards and safety precautions! Also some info on ballast requirements, and a brief section on short arc HMI lamps. Note that HMI lights are technically medium-arc not a 'true' short arc:

    Short Arc / Compact Source Lamps



    This one is more specific yet - Wikipedia HMI entry
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-14-2014 at 08:56 AM. Reason: added AD, DC info
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  29. #59
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I know that the glass high bay lens that I put in front of my reflector will block most of the UV. Metal Halide lamps often have an outer glass envelope added specifically to block UV. MSR lamps do not have this envelope, and they do emit intense UV light. They NEED to have this UV reduced to a safe level. Is the glass safety lens enough? I expect so, since this is one of it's main purposes. But most or all intended lamps for high bay lights have that extra envelope. On the other hand, high bay lights shine on people all day long, day after day, so the permissible level would be correspondingly lower than for a short-use spotlight not aimed at people.

    Absorption depends upon thickness. Regular Soda Lime glass will reportedly stop all UVC, all UVB, and a majority of UVA. Polycarbonate is supposed to be much better at blocking UV. I could make a polycarbonate lens easily enough, but it would be less durable, and might melt.

    Aside from getting a spectrometer, how can I assess the emitted UV level? One suggestion I read was to illuminate super white copy paper, and to look for fluorescence. Any blue glow indicates UV. So, using a fluorescent dye of some sort is one way. Phosphors won't work; they charge with visible light, too. Flourescence would give no indication of relative strength.

    The best idea I can think of is to use photrochomic eyeglasses. I believe only UV will darken the tint. I could cover 1/2 of the light source with a thickness of polycarbonate, and place the glasses so that one lens receives full light, and one gets polycarbonate-filtered light. If only the lens on the unblocked side darkens, and it darkens a lot faster than it would in direct sunlight, then that would indicate significantly more UV than in sunlight. If both lenses darken equally fast, then they are sensitive to visible light, and the method won't work. The result is still subjective, because even with a stopwatch, it relies on judging how dark a tint has become. But at least it could provide some relative indication of UV intensity.

    Does anybody have creative ideas for how to detect UV light amidst a lot of visible light, and gauge it's intensity?
    Last edited by JP Labs; 09-12-2014 at 09:24 PM.
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  30. #60
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    Default Re: Scored a Nice 16" Parabolic Reflector. HID or Short Arc? Test Beamshots w/ HID.

    I am a very safety conscious person. I worked for a public agency with an aggressive safety officer in the office next door. It was drilled into me for 34 years. So this may sound counter to my past experiences. You're never going to want to point the light at anyone so UV emissions should not really matter. And a momentary "hit" at some distance is not going to do any damage. Eye damage will occur before any burn damage. I remember someone foolishly putting their hand in front of (2" away from the window) Larry Black's VSS-3 at a get-together. He did, indeed get a slight burn on his hand. There is no UV spec given for the lamps you're considering? But again, not sure I'd concern myself assuming you're aggressive in safety procedures when using the light.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Pichel 75W Mini-Novas

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