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Thread: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

  1. #5371

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dascombe View Post
    Laptop pulls? I've tested a bunch of old recovered cells and those numbers look about right, except for the IR values; those look awfully good for cells that have lost that much capacity (especially cell #2). On a recent bunch I tested, they had values in the low 100s (DC IR). Doing a discharge test on the MC3000 app, you could clearly see the voltage sag. Recycled that bunch.
    Not “pulls”, batteries I bought new from reputable dealers, though a few were given to me by friends, and those seem to be legit, though I’m no expert on fake detection, as it’s a moving target.

    I realized I was just be lazy, by just running all my old 18650’s on the STORAGE program, why not use the full capabilities of my new SUPER charger! So I just finished a C-D cycle, and with those results, I can see which ones to discard. Especially the loss of watt hours, as I can now keep those statistics for my records too.

    I found one more 2015 year, Sony VTC4, like the #2 cell in my test you mentioned. This one is also well below the 2100mAh when new spec.

    VTC4:
    1513mAh
    WH: 5.6
    DC: 41
    AC IR: 18.7 (12=spec)

    So those two are spent. All the other old VTC4’s are showing over 1850mAh, so I’ll store those as backups.
    My 2015, Sony VTC5’s, show over +2350mAh (2500mAh new spec), so they didn’t loose much capacity, all of the batteries I used, weren’t abused, I’m sure that has helped. Now that I know what to keep, I’ll run the STORAGE problem again.

    This charger is SUPER!

  2. #5372

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    QUICK QUESTION:

    I’ve seen a few programs like C-D, C-D-C, etc., with:
    Charge Rest = 30 minutes
    Discharge Rest = 60 minutes
    *I assume these are suggested standards, that’s built into the firmware?

    However, the “STORAGE” program has both rest times as “OFF”, is this because it’s NOT needed in this program?
    Thanks!

  3. #5373

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I think that I have already read something about NiMh batteries that they show measurably less usable capacity one day after charging, like directly after charging.

    Up until now I have assumed the warming of the NiMh batteries at the end of the charge as a possible reason for a possibly necessary cooling phase.
    But I basically leave out these breaks.

  4. #5374

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by sbj View Post
    I think that I have already read something about NiMh batteries that they show measurably less usable capacity one day after charging, like directly after charging.

    Up until now I have assumed the warming of the NiMh batteries at the end of the charge as a possible reason for a possibly necessary cooling phase.
    But I basically leave out these breaks.
    Sorry, I certainly should have mentioned I was talking about lithium 18650’s. Read it’s bad to charge a “hot” battery, but I monitored my battery temperatures via the charger, and rarely get close to 90f. I assume that’s just warm for 18650’s. I’m just looking to save some time on programs like REFRESH, or a C-D-C CYCLE, with the chargers default on some of these programs, there is a 30 minute rest after a charge cycle, and 60 minutes after a discharge cycle, that’s an additional 90 minutes. Now if those REST period times are NEEDED, then I’ll leave those default times. Thanks!

  5. #5375

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I don't see any problems with Lion batteries. It is positive if they are warm to the touch when charging or discharging. The internal resistance drops.

    When charging with a maximum of 0.6C, I could barely notice any noticeable warming up until now. It can look different when discharging at high current.

    When the MC3000 discharges four Li batteries with 1A each, it must dissipate more than 15 watts of heat. In the thermal image from HKJ's test, however, you can see that the work of the fan means that the cells do not exceed 40 degrees Celsius.
    A cooling break would then be appropriate for the charger itself.

  6. #5376

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I have problem with skyrc mc3000 bluetooth connection.
    It works well from skyrc mc3000 android app and the device is recognized. But when I leave the charger for long time with some program started (for example night charging) after that time I cannot connect anymore to skyrc charger. It appears like that skyrc is not visible on bluetooth anymore. Only SkyRC MC3000 poweroff reset helps. I have latest firmware 1.15. Using Samsung S10 Android 10 smartphone. Does anyone knows some working solution to this bug ?

  7. #5377

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by scav View Post
    I have problem with skyrc mc3000 bluetooth connection.
    It works well from skyrc mc3000 android app and the device is recognized. But when I leave the charger for long time with some program started (for example night charging) after that time I cannot connect anymore to skyrc charger. It appears like that skyrc is not visible on bluetooth anymore. Only SkyRC MC3000 poweroff reset helps. I have latest firmware 1.15. Using Samsung S10 Android 10 smartphone. Does anyone knows some working solution to this bug ?
    Same thing happens to me all the time; it's frustrating. Unfortunately I haven't found a way around it other than to leave my phone close to the charger when a program is running. It seems to happen when you start a program and then go out of range and upon coming back, it won't initiate the BT connection. Doesn't happen all the time which makes it even more frustrating.

    The BT connection on this charger is terribly implemented anyway; instead of the charger broadcasting its BT signal, it's the app that triggers the charger to turn on the BT radio to begin broadcasting. Just

  8. #5378

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Something to address in the future:
    With system sound and the screensaver enabled, this thing produces loud beeps every 10-15 seconds. This drives me crazy! Why on Earth they made it like this? I haven't found a way around this, you should either disable the screensaver or the system sounds.

  9. #5379

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    New to the forum! Hello everyone!

    I just got this MC3000 charger in today. I an trying to charge my Eneloop AA/AApro/AAA/AAApro. What's the best setting I should charge them? The last thing I want to do is overcharge them. I tried the standard settings in advance using the preset Eneloop but ONLY modifying the speed of charge to around 0.35-0.5a. I was seeing the voltage climb more then 1.51 and I was a bit worried so I stop it myself.

    When I tried in dummy mode all of my eneloop stopped charging at 1.48v. I also tried fully charged, fresh off the charger of the standard oem Panasonic charger and it measures 1.48v give of take a few .01.
    Last edited by panasonicst60; 03-20-2021 at 06:57 PM.

  10. #5380
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I use 1.0 Amp for AA and .5 Amp for AAA. Low rates can sometimes cause a missed termination.
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  11. #5381

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by BVH View Post
    I use 1.0 Amp for AA and .5 Amp for AAA. Low rates can sometimes cause a missed termination.
    I tried .4 for aaa and .66 for aa and it seem to work fine now. I also changed the delta peak to 0. Now the mc3000 terminates the charge roughly at 1.56 volts. Seems good?

  12. #5382

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by BVH View Post
    I use 1.0 Amp for AA and .5 Amp for AAA. Low rates can sometimes cause a missed termination.
    Using the low recharging connrents, you risk falling on the recharging timer: try increasing the timer time from the App

  13. #5383

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by panasonicst60 View Post
    New to the forum! Hello everyone!

    I just got this MC3000 charger in today. I an trying to charge my Eneloop AA/AApro/AAA/AAApro. What's the best setting I should charge them? The last thing I want to do is overcharge them. I tried the standard settings in advance using the preset Eneloop but ONLY modifying the speed of charge to around 0.35-0.5a. I was seeing the voltage climb more then 1.51 and I was a bit worried so I stop it myself.

    When I tried in dummy mode all of my eneloop stopped charging at 1.48v. I also tried fully charged, fresh off the charger of the standard oem Panasonic charger and it measures 1.48v give of take a few .01.
    From the App you can increase the Voltage parameter over 1.48 Volt.
    Better still to have more safety with the Eneloop, bring the parameter -Delta V to 2mV or 4mV

  14. #5384

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by hc900 View Post
    From the App you can increase the Voltage parameter over 1.48 Volt.
    Better still to have more safety with the Eneloop, bring the parameter -Delta V to 2mV or 4mV
    I adjusted the delta v to 0.

  15. #5385

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by panasonicst60 View Post
    New to the forum! Hello everyone!

    I just got this MC3000 charger in today. I an trying to charge my Eneloop AA/AApro/AAA/AAApro. What's the best setting I should charge them? The last thing I want to do is overcharge them. I tried the standard settings in advance using the preset Eneloop but ONLY modifying the speed of charge to around 0.35-0.5a. I was seeing the voltage climb more then 1.51 and I was a bit worried so I stop it myself.

    When I tried in dummy mode all of my eneloop stopped charging at 1.48v. I also tried fully charged, fresh off the charger of the standard oem Panasonic charger and it measures 1.48v give of take a few .01.
    Do not use such low charging currents, since the charger may not be able to detect the end of charge.
    The best thing is to use 0.5 C ( 1 A for standard AA, 0.4 A for standard AAA) with 0 dV termination, backed up by temperature cut off at about 42-45 C and a timer set to 150-160 min. Leave max U at 1.65 V. This is not a reliable termination criterion, and you don't need it as a backup.

  16. #5386

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    Do not use such low charging currents, since the charger may not be able to detect the end of charge.
    The best thing is to use 0.5 C ( 1 A for standard AA, 0.4 A for standard AAA) with 0 dV termination, backed up by temperature cut off at about 42-45 C and a timer set to 150-160 min. Leave max U at 1.65 V. This is not a reliable termination criterion, and you don't need it as a backup.
    I can't respond fast enough as I am new. My replies are getting delayed for a few days. I have been using about 0.7A for AA and .4A with 0 dv and it's been working great.

  17. #5387

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    0.7 A may be a bit too low for AA, especially for Eneloop Pro. This may cause missed termination, or in the case of 0 dV, an early one. I suggest you stick to the 0.5 C rule, i.e. the charging current for Eneloops should be half of their rated capacity. Terminating with 0 dV doesn't overcharge the cells, so there is no benefit to decrease the charging current below 0.5 C. Observe the charging time (for fully discharged cells) and set the timer cutoff to something like 120 % of that. Also observe the end of charge temperatures. Mind that it is 1-1.5 degrees higher for the inside slots (slots 2 and 3). Set the temperature cutoff to 4-5 degrees C higher than the maximum observed temperature. It should be around 42-45 degrees C. You may need to correct this in the summer, if the ambient temperature is significantly higher than now.
    This way, you'll have about the perfect charging program for Eneloops or any other NiMH.

  18. #5388

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    0.7 A may be a bit too low for AA, especially for Eneloop Pro. This may cause missed termination, or in the case of 0 dV, an early one. I suggest you stick to the 0.5 C rule, i.e. the charging current for Eneloops should be half of their rated capacity. Terminating with 0 dV doesn't overcharge the cells, so there is no benefit to decrease the charging current below 0.5 C. Observe the charging time (for fully discharged cells) and set the timer cutoff to something like 120 % of that. Also observe the end of charge temperatures. Mind that it is 1-1.5 degrees higher for the inside slots (slots 2 and 3). Set the temperature cutoff to 4-5 degrees C higher than the maximum observed temperature. It should be around 42-45 degrees C. You may need to correct this in the summer, if the ambient temperature is significantly higher than now.
    This way, you'll have about the perfect charging program for Eneloops or any other NiMH.
    What does the "C" stand for as in 0.5 C? I'm new to all this..So the aa pro is rated for 2500mah I should change at 1.25 a? Is that what it means?
    Last edited by panasonicst60; 03-22-2021 at 09:50 AM.

  19. #5389

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    C stands for capacity, in this case the nominal capacity of the cells. 0.5 C means that you should charge with a current equal to half of the rated capacity, or 1.2-1.25 A for Eneloop Pro AA.

  20. #5390

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    C stands for capacity, in this case the nominal capacity of the cells. 0.5 C means that you should charge with a current equal to half of the rated capacity, or 1.2-1.25 A for Eneloop Pro AA.
    Got it. Thank you! Can you explain what exactly does the Dv do to affect the charging?
    Last edited by panasonicst60; 03-22-2021 at 11:53 AM.

  21. #5391

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    -dV or negative delta V, or -dV/dt in this context, stands for the voltage drop (decrease of voltage) NiMH batteries exhibit when they enter overcharge. When NiMH batteries are fully charged, they cannot absorb more energy and start to heat rapidly, the extra energy being dissipated as heat. The increased temperature causes decrease of internal resistance and the voltage decreases as a result. This is the so called negative dV or -dV. Sadly, most chargers use this method to terminate the charge of NiMH, thus overcharging the batteries, how much, depends on the value of the -dV the charger is capable of measuring before terminating the charge. Typical values are 10-15 mV for cheaper chargers.
    The proper method of charging NiMH batteries is 0 dV, i.e. the voltage plateau that occurs just before the voltage drop, or just before the batteries enter overcharge. If implemented properly, this is the only method for charging NiMH that ensures full charging without overcharge and overheating at charging currents 0.5-1 C.
    Last edited by NiOOH; 03-22-2021 at 12:41 PM.

  22. #5392

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    -dV or negative delta V, or -dV/dt in this context, stands for the voltage drop (decrease of voltage) NiMH batteries exhibit when they enter overcharge. When NiMH batteries are fully charged, they cannot absorb more energy and start to heat rapidly, the extra energy being dissipated as heat. The increased temperature causes decrease of internal resistance and the voltage decreases as a result. This is the so called negative dV or -dV. Sadly, most chargers use this method to terminate the charge of NiMH, thus overcharging the batteries, how much, depends on the value of the -dV the charger is capable of measuring before terminating the charge. Typical values are 10-15 mV for cheaper chargers.
    The proper method of charging NiMH batteries is 0 dV, i.e. the voltage plateau that occurs just before the voltage drop, or just before the batteries enter overcharge. If implemented properly, this is the only method for charging NiMH that ensures full charging without overcharge and overheating at charging currents 0.5-1 C.
    Great explanation. Crystal clear. Much appreciated!!

  23. #5393
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    The increased temperature causes decrease of internal resistance and the voltage decreases as a result.
    The increased temperature causes increase of internal resistance and the voltage decreases as a result.
    More resistance, less voltage ?
    Simon uses chargers : Voltcraft Charge Manager 2020, Voltcraft UCT-50-5, SkyRC Imax B6, Ikea Ladda, Ikea Storhφgen , GP Smart Charger, Powerex MH-C9000, Panasonic BQ-CC09 & Nitecore D4 / Need a french translation ? -> PM

  24. #5394

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by sim_v View Post
    The increased temperature causes increase of internal resistance and the voltage decreases as a result.
    More resistance, less voltage ?

    Nope. Batteries do not behave as simple metal conductors, i.e. increasing resistance with temperature. Batteries are electrochemical devices and their electrical behavior depends on the rate of chemical reactions inside. And these reactions accelerate with temperature, leading to a decrease of internal resistance. For the same reason, IR increases at low temperatures. This is the well known deterioration of battery performance in cold weather.
    Actually, you do not have to believe me or even the books. You can measure it yourself if you have the equipment.

    It is exactly this decrease of internal resistance that causes the voltage drop upon charge. It is a consequence of the Ohm's law under constant current conditions.
    Last edited by NiOOH; 03-22-2021 at 06:02 PM.

  25. #5395
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    thanks for the explanation.
    Simon uses chargers : Voltcraft Charge Manager 2020, Voltcraft UCT-50-5, SkyRC Imax B6, Ikea Ladda, Ikea Storhφgen , GP Smart Charger, Powerex MH-C9000, Panasonic BQ-CC09 & Nitecore D4 / Need a french translation ? -> PM

  26. #5396

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Hi all, I am trying to figure out if what I propose is posible.
    I usually use my SkyRC MC3000 charger to recondition NiMh and LiIon batteries.
    I do usually test old cells that have a relatively high internal resistance, and have found that after some charge-discharge cycles this value goes down.


    Is it possible to have the charger test IR automatically test after each cycle (either charge or discharge, or both), so I can keep track of its evolution.
    The charger already stores some cycle information, as the capacity, so it should not represent an issue.


    Also, using DEX the resistance is shown as constant for the whole program, so testing and updating the value should be simple (it will change for each stage/cycle).


    I was unable to find such feature in current firmware v1.15.

    If it is not implemented, I recall that at some point there were members who had contact with SkyRC, so it could be a feature request.

    What do you think?


    Thank you!

  27. #5397

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    IR is measured in the beginning of the program. You can check it during or after the end of the program. It is not measured continuously, it is not possible with this charger.
    Also, keep in mind that the way the IR is measured in the MC3000 does not lead to very reproducible results. I wouldn't trust it to track cell wear.

  28. #5398

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    IR is measured in the beginning of the program. You can check it during or after the end of the program. It is not measured continuously, it is not possible with this charger.
    Also, keep in mind that the way the IR is measured in the MC3000 does not lead to very reproducible results. I wouldn't trust it to track cell wear.
    Thank you for your reply. I am aware of the limitations of the information, and on how/when the charger measures the value.
    I do not intend to do continuous measuring, but rather test after each cycle, that is, if a do a 10 cycle C-D, I would like to test a single value after Charging, then after Discharging, and so on, for a total of 20 values.

  29. #5399

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    If you wanna do that, you should cycle manually, i.e. execute the programs separately and record the data yourself. AFAIK, there is no other way to do it.

  30. #5400

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by NiOOH View Post
    If you wanna do that, you should cycle manually, i.e. execute the programs separately and record the data yourself. AFAIK, there is no other way to do it.
    Thank you, that is what I thought.
    It should be a feature request then.

    Regards

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