Need Help With Super Bright LEDs for Prop Project

Edymnion

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
1
Hello,

I have some experience with wiring up standard el-cheapo 5mm LEDs for various projects where my only real consideration was "make it light up", but my current project demands more and I think I'm a little outside of my league. Time to ask for some help from people who are more experienced than myself!

Project:
I'm building a prop that I would ideally like to shoot out a very strong flashlight quality beam of light in order to project a logo onto a wall. Think handheld bat signal.

Requirements:
Needs to ideally be able to throw a fairly crisp image through a red resin lens with the logo blacked out on it.
Needs to be able to run for short periods of time on a 9v or perhaps 6 AAA's. By short periods I mean 10-15 seconds at a time.
Needs to fit under a shallow dome with an 8cm diameter and at most 2cm depth.
Needs to not put off too much heat, as they will be fully enclosed in a cramped space with little to no ventilation.

Preferences:
My experience is limited to standard dome LEDs with 2-3 leads, but I've been watching videos on SMDs. They look like a lot more hassle than I'd ideally like to go through (tweezers to mount them onto PCB just to wire them up is honestly making me cringe a bit).
Not bank breaking. I'd like to keep it under 50 cents per LED if possible.

So, does anyone have recommendations on:
1) Is this even possible under such constraints.
2) What LEDs I should be looking for?

Also, is it correct that 1,000 mcd = 1 lumen? I've been seeing them spec'ed in both lumens and mcd, and wanting to make sure I'm comparing oranges to oranges.

---

For anyone interested in what the project is, I have a fairly good 3D printer and have made a prop from my favorite cartoon as a kid, the Thundercats. Its a sword that can project their logo into the sky, and I'd love to be able to do the same to at least a wall in a semi darkened room. The first one I made in under 2 weeks in time to get it to a convention, and now I'm wanting to take my time and make a really nice one that has all the bells and whistles.

10628466_10205217102526966_7600061896671456314_n.jpg
10577139_10205069683561584_2275146592928820309_n.jpg
thundercats101-32.jpg


So I'm clearly limited in power supplies to what I can fit inside the handle.

If I can't get it bright enough to project the symbol, I can always just make due with it lighting up, but I'd really like to make it as bright as humanly possible given the constraints.

Any insight from the pros would be greatly appreciated!
 

SemiMan

Banned
Joined
Jan 13, 2005
Messages
3,899
Hello,

I have some experience with wiring up standard el-cheapo 5mm LEDs for various projects where my only real consideration was "make it light up", but my current project demands more and I think I'm a little outside of my league. Time to ask for some help from people who are more experienced than myself!

Project:
I'm building a prop that I would ideally like to shoot out a very strong flashlight quality beam of light in order to project a logo onto a wall. Think handheld bat signal.

Requirements:
Needs to ideally be able to throw a fairly crisp image through a red resin lens with the logo blacked out on it.
Needs to be able to run for short periods of time on a 9v or perhaps 6 AAA's. By short periods I mean 10-15 seconds at a time.
Needs to fit under a shallow dome with an 8cm diameter and at most 2cm depth.
Needs to not put off too much heat, as they will be fully enclosed in a cramped space with little to no ventilation.

Preferences:
My experience is limited to standard dome LEDs with 2-3 leads, but I've been watching videos on SMDs. They look like a lot more hassle than I'd ideally like to go through (tweezers to mount them onto PCB just to wire them up is honestly making me cringe a bit).
Not bank breaking. I'd like to keep it under 50 cents per LED if possible.

So, does anyone have recommendations on:
1) Is this even possible under such constraints.
2) What LEDs I should be looking for?

Also, is it correct that 1,000 mcd = 1 lumen? I've been seeing them spec'ed in both lumens and mcd, and wanting to make sure I'm comparing oranges to oranges.

---

For anyone interested in what the project is, I have a fairly good 3D printer and have made a prop from my favorite cartoon as a kid, the Thundercats. Its a sword that can project their logo into the sky, and I'd love to be able to do the same to at least a wall in a semi darkened room. The first one I made in under 2 weeks in time to get it to a convention, and now I'm wanting to take my time and make a really nice one that has all the bells and whistles.

10628466_10205217102526966_7600061896671456314_n.jpg
10577139_10205069683561584_2275146592928820309_n.jpg
thundercats101-32.jpg


So I'm clearly limited in power supplies to what I can fit inside the handle.

If I can't get it bright enough to project the symbol, I can always just make due with it lighting up, but I'd really like to make it as bright as humanly possible given the constraints.

Any insight from the pros would be greatly appreciated!



I would suggest taking a step back. It is not as simple as getting a bright led. The issue is an optical one. You don't have enough depth behind the symbol to create a nicely collimated beam of light or even somewhat focussed such that you can actually project the symbol.

Optic experts feel free to jump in here, but my kleenex calculations say no way.

semiman
 

DIWdiver

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
2,725
Location
Connecticut, USA
Well, yes and no.

To shine through that symbol and use it as the image source, I agree you need far more depth behind it.

But I have a little giveaway light that does exactly what the OP wants - shines a clear sharp image on a wall a few feet away. The entire optics package is about 1-1/4" long, and uses a standard 5mm LED as a source. With a surface mount LED, it could be shortened considerably. 20mm might be cutting it a bit close, but I'd guess it could be made 25-28mm long. The package consists of an LED, lens, transparent film with the image on it, and another lens. The lenses are about 3/8" diameter, bi-convex.

My suggestion would be to light up the logo separately, and project the image from a small lens nearby.
 

RoGuE_StreaK

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
615
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I haven't tried this, so no idea what the result would be; but with the el-cheapo throwers like the SK68 clones (~$4), the depth to get a clean projection of the die (XP-E or XR-E usually) is say 20mm, maybe less? A passing thought is, what if you replace the XP-E with a red 5050 chip? Would you get a red projected circle?
[EDIT] duh, I was thinking of the circular phosphor of a white 5050, reds don't have phosphor... But maybe if you put a diffused circular panel just above the LED?
And then attach your black cutout to this panel. Image would need to be sub 5mm...

Anyway, as per DIW, embed the lens within your existing logo, and maybe just "fake it" by illuminating the rest of the logo red while the mini aspheric takes care of the projection?

Or keep the XP-E so you don't need to change any of the driver, and you can run it off 1x AA. Just need to (?) print your black logo on a red film, and adjust the focus? Might have experiment with an SK68 tonight...
 

Illum

Flashaholic
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
13,053
Location
Central Florida, USA
With bi-convex lens it might work, but you'll have to play around with different Red LED packages until you find one that possesses sufficient divergence given the depth limitations. Also, you may have a difficult time locating the proper lens size for a drop-in fit. It may come down to you building the sword to the dimension of the optics.

EDIT: DIWdiver's got it
 

RoGuE_StreaK

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
615
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I did some (very) rough experiments with an SK68 clone last night. Below is the results of just using the ads on a shop-a-docket (printed paper receipt) stretched a few mm above the XP-E emitter (see last photo for placement gist), then holding the lens by hand in front to get a semi-clean projection. Well it kinda works, with a properly printed and placed image it may well prove sufficient. Just using a single Eneloop (AA rechargeable), if using a li-ion it should be significantly brighter. A proper red film (cellophane?) with a nice sharp solid black logo could well do the trick, especially if you can get it closer to the LED.










 
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