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Thread: Better Business Bureau

  1. #1
    Enlightened spydiesteve's Avatar
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    Default Better Business Bureau

    I haven't heard from Mac in nearly a month, since he said I would have tracking info "shortly". I sent him another email on Monday saying if I hadn't heard from him by Friday (yesterday) I would open a new thread asking everyone he owes a light, too come together and turn in a list of names and what we are owed to the BBB. It may not do any good, but I feel like we need to try. I am sick and tired of custom makers asking people to pay up front and then not deliver what was paid for. There are several former knife makers who have done the same thing. Stealing is stealing plain and simple!! So if you want to participate please post your full name, the light you paid for with order date, and the amount you paid for the light. I will let this thread run for a week or so and if there is enough interest I will proceed with filing the claim, if not I will file the claim myself. Who knows this thread alone may be enough to get him to deliver what is owed or at least give us a refund.

    Steve Turner
    Tri-EDC Neutral tint with Ti clip. $234.98
    January 4th 2014
    Paid in full

  2. #2
    *Flashaholic* Str8stroke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    I don't know the man, nor owe the man. But, I have been following all these posts for a while now. I would caution you that the BBB is likely a waste of time and energy. Trust me, I run a small business. The BBB has Zero leverage and is a joke. They are a money making private business! They exist only to try and strong arm businesses into a membership in order to "resolve the complaint". No matter how petty or bogus the "complaint" is.

    I would suggest you try and gather as many folks as willing and file a Class Action suit. That would likely get some results. Assuming he is still alive (Even then you could go after the Estate) and hasn't or doesn't file BK on you.

    I am not a Attny, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

    Good luck folks.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    FWIW, State AG Offices handle fraud cases. The BBB is not a LE agency and has no direct enforcement powers.

    I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express but I did take a White Collar Crime course taught by one of the PA AG's senior special agents.
    Last edited by IsaacL; 09-20-2014 at 03:36 PM.
    On ne voit bien qu'avec le cur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

  4. #4
    Flashaholic LupinIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    The BBB really has no leverage here whatsoever. I recently ran into issues with another small business that was horrible with communication and delaying the project after I paid in full up front. Found out later on that others had reported the business to the BBB and nothing has changed. The project was ultimately completed fortunately.

    In this case, Mac has had a long history of not handling communication and timing commitments well BUT I do not know of anyone who has actually been stiffed on a light. Sure there is technically always a line of people waiting for what they paid for but I do believe he will make good on his remaining backlog. I understand how much it sucks to be at the mercy of one person who has your money and it is too late to take direct action via some service such as Paypal or your credit card company - I feel for you guys. With that in mind, giving it time is likely the best action. Give the guy some breathing room (and I know he does not necessarily deserve it) to make good on his orders.

    It would be more helpful if people who have received lights recently post when they received their order and as more people get them, they update here. Ideally, we would see a progression of orders being filled over the months. Hopeful yes but BBB is ineffective and class action is unlikely in my opinion.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    It really sucks when I spent far too long writing a great post and the browser times out and when I click the post button everything I just laboriously typed is uuuugh! My original post was so much better... Anyway, Spydiesteve your heart is in the right place but the BBB is a joke unfortunately. The best thing for us would be to have people post in the "order and fill date" thread for sure. Mac told me about a month or two ago that "your light will be completed" I have no choice but to take the man for his word and as LupinIII stated he hasn't technically "stiffed" anyone out of their money he just takes a ridiculously loooooooooooong time sometimes. Who knows how many lights he is behind, could be 100+ for all we know, it could be an overwhelmingly large amount. Not to mention he might be pissed, imagine the volume of nasty emails he probably gets in all of his accounts almost daily? I'm not trying to defend his behavior too much, I want my light as much as the next guy, but imagine how HAPPY we will be the day we find that package in the mail box!

  6. #6
    Enlightened spydiesteve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Well I guess from what I am hearing BBB is not a viable option. However with that being said why do people constantly defend this person. If you pay for something and you are promised a six week delivery date, after six months have passed and you haven't heard from the seller, then to me that is stealing. not one time in the first six months did I harass Mac or send him an email of any kind, fact of the matter I actually forgot about it. I also looked in the post your order thread and there are people who paid for light over a year ago!! If you get that far behind you should stop taking orders, not just let your website keep running and people keep buying lights with the six week delivery date. This is fraud plain and simple. I am to the point that I really don't care how great his light is I just the light or my money back and be done with all this. I don't know what makes people think he is going to deliver? He doesn't answer email he doesn't post in this forum, and his website is closed down. I will say that I have learned my lesson and will no longer pay up front for anything.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    I have filed a complaint today with the cyber crime division. http://www.mass.gov/ago/bureaus/crim...rime-division/

    it it was easy and I suggest we all do the same.

  8. #8
    Enlightened spydiesteve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by gonefishing View Post
    I have filed a complaint today with the cyber crime division. http://www.mass.gov/ago/bureaus/crim...rime-division/

    it it was easy and I suggest we all do the same.
    Complaint filed

  9. #9
    *Flashaholic* Nicrod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    I too would like to hear from the people, IF any at all, that are in fact receiving lights!


    Has anyone received a light from Mac direct in the last 6 months?? Please post!


    Nick

  10. #10

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Not sure this will help anybody out now but I got a Paypal update today, they are now doing the following "• We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.
    • We're extending buyer protection to include item not received claims for custom made products."

  11. #11

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Good to know. Thanks for sharing.
    On ne voit bien qu'avec le cur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic cjmorris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    This is a sad situation. I have wanted one if macs lights but I just couldn't trust him at this point.

  13. #13
    Flashaholic Nutdip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    I have been waiting since 3.3.13 for a $350.00 prepaid light. Details here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-Sunday-3-3-13

    Last response was in a PM in February of 14. He said "Sorry man, what do I owe you and I'll get it right out." so, I think he's trying, but maybe having some personal problems? Just thought I'd chime in for your list.

    Good luck to us all. :-)

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Hey at least you didn't have to worry about your wife tossing it. It's still *safe* at Mac's shop.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    so i have read the threads of Mac , and Him ripping off people for paid lights, and not responding to emails..etc..etc..etc.. So here are my questions on this whole dilemma... #1) why Hasnt Candle Power forums taken action against Mac..? #2) someone on CPF has to live near or in the same state as He does, or know Mac... why havent they gotten involved in going over there and talking to him face to face ? #3) why dont the people who have been ripped off draw up a Laywer and sue him as a group or take leagal action against him.. lein his house , seize assets..etc..etc..?

  16. #16
    Administrator Greta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by H20doctor View Post
    ... #1) why Hasnt Candle Power forums taken action against Mac..?
    Because it is none of my (CPF's) business. These transactions that take place between private parties do not involve me or CPF beyond providing a venue for private parties to engage in such transactions.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by H20doctor View Post
    so i have read the threads of Mac , and Him ripping off people for paid lights, and not responding to emails..etc..etc..etc.. So here are my questions on this whole dilemma... #1) why Hasnt Candle Power forums taken action against Mac..? #2) someone on CPF has to live near or in the same state as He does, or know Mac... why havent they gotten involved in going over there and talking to him face to face ? #3) why dont the people who have been ripped off draw up a Laywer and sue him as a group or take leagal action against him.. lein his house , seize assets..etc..etc..?
    Please please please, nobody go and try to shake down Mac. While your post didn't explicitly mention it, the tone is very aggressive. Things tend to escalate in physical confrontations and I would not want to see anyone here put themselves in a potentially legal bind.

    I think you are overreacting, especially considering the totality of the circumstances. It is quite common for custom orders to stretch into months and even years. And unlike previous makers who did take member's money and run, Mac has never given us reason to believe the orders will not eventually be fulfilled.

    Greta said it best, CPF is just a venue for makers and collectors to congregate. If you personally have an outstanding order, I humbly suggest that you first try contacting Mac. The next appropriate step would be to go to Paypal or your credit card company to file a claim.

    That is just my opinion and you are certainly welcome to disregard it.
    On ne voit bien qu'avec le cur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

  18. #18
    Flashaholic Navistar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    This situation is very strange. I've been off the forum for a long time and Mac had always been a member in good standing and to come back and see all of this is weird. I bought a mag conversion part from him and it was a smooth transaction. Hope to see it all blow over as I came back to his forum to drool over his lights


    Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    It's been worsening for years. It's not going to blow over.

    Anyways, I do also wonder at times why Lummi and Mac still have subforums here. Rob and Mac haven't posted or monitored their subforums for ages. What's more, their business practices have been deplorable.

    That they still have subforums gives the impression (whether true or not) that CPF as a community and its administration still support them. I would say almost no one supports Lummi anymore and many are unhappy with Mac.

    The Arc subforum was dissolved when Arc as it was when Peter was a part of this community no longer existed. Lummi and Mac's Customs really are no longer a part of this community.

    What's more, and perhaps the thing that irks me the most is that these two subforums, rife with threads about problems with the makers and absent any activity on the part of those makers, stand strong in a prominent place alongside esteemed members of the board such as Don and Data and Fred and the Oveready boys and others. Personally, I think it is absurd that Rob's subforum should be right there alongside these guys who still work so hard to support the community and take outstanding care of their customers. Lummi and Mac no longer deserve to have their subforums.

    I make a motion to dissolve these subforums and move the threads as was done with Arc.

    Greta, If this is OT feel free to move it or start a new thread with it as the OP or something but it's something I've wanted to say for awhile and I hope it is taken seriously. Thank you.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    im not trying to stir the pot, or be aggressive in any way ... If i paid $600.00 or more for a flash light , as some people have here, and then gotten no replies, PM or emails to where my flashlight is ? i would be not in a happy mood... If you add up the amount of money he has collected for lights still not delivered, that to me is theft , So why is theft Not a Violation of CPF Terms Of Service ? Or TOS ? .... it may be a private sale , but it gives CPF a bad rap as a site on the internet ... there are people here waiting for a product, and Mac as a Courtesy , as a business person should be providing answers to these people...

  21. #21
    Retired Administrator Norm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by H20doctor View Post
    So why is theft Not a Violation of CPF Terms Of Service ? Or TOS ? .... it may be a private sale , but it gives CPF a bad rap as a site on the internet ... there are people here waiting for a product, and Mac as a Courtesy , as a business person should be providing answers to these people...
    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    Because it is none of my (CPF's) business. These transactions that take place between private parties do not involve me or CPF beyond providing a venue for private parties to engage in such transactions.
    Just as CPF provides a forum for you to discuss the problem.

    Norm
    Last edited by Norm; 10-27-2014 at 11:26 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    It's been worsening for years. It's not going to blow over.
    I don't think that anyone is suggesting it will "blow over".

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Anyways, I do also wonder at times why Lummi and Mac still have subforums here. Rob and Mac haven't posted or monitored their subforums for ages. What's more, their business practices have been deplorable.

    That they still have subforums gives the impression (whether true or not) that CPF as a community and its administration still support them. I would say almost no one supports Lummi anymore and many are unhappy with Mac.
    We know that Rob is a fraud. Mac is at worst a bad business manager....and he's not going around bilking people like Rob still is. I wonder at times why the two get compared to each other since the situation is not at all the same. You should realize that people who are currently waiting for their lights are going to see these posts and get the wrong idea. What they should be doing is opening a line of communication either to Mac or with their financial institutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    The Arc subforum was dissolved when Arc as it was when Peter was a part of this community no longer existed. Lummi and Mac's Customs really are no longer a part of this community.
    I agree, these makers no longer participate in the CPF community.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    What's more, and perhaps the thing that irks me the most is that these two subforums, rife with threads about problems with the makers and absent any activity on the part of those makers, stand strong in a prominent place alongside esteemed members of the board such as Don and Data and Fred and the Oveready boys and others. Personally, I think it is absurd that Rob's subforum should be right there alongside these guys who still work so hard to support the community and take outstanding care of their customers. Lummi and Mac no longer deserve to have their subforums.

    I make a motion to dissolve these subforums and move the threads as was done with Arc.
    You have no argument from me here. Just thinking about Rob makes me sick. I don't believe that Mac's forum should continue to stand next to the rest who are dedicated to the community. Regardless, those decisions are up the Greta to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Greta, If this is OT feel free to move it or start a new thread with it as the OP or something but it's something I've wanted to say for awhile and I hope it is taken seriously. Thank you.
    Having said that, I firmly believe that closure has not been reached for the customers with outstanding orders. Furthermore, there has been substantial activity surrounding Mac's lights in the past year. There are over 2 dozens threads with posts from 2014 in this forum alone, even more if you look back to last October. In addition, there have been countless sales of Mac's lights in both of the sale forums. Perhaps even more importantly, there has been a ton of support from community members to repair and modify existing lights. All of that would likely be nixed if this subforum were dissolved immediately. Is that fair to the people who own Mac's lights?

    Finally, Mac has indeed been active, even if not to the fullest extent necessary. I have received emails from him, others have received emails from him, Gonefishing just received a light, Mac left a message on the website, then he shut down his website. There is no longer any issue of people ordering new lights without knowing the current situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H20doctor View Post
    im not trying to stir the pot, or be aggressive in any way ... If i paid $600.00 or more for a flashlight , as some people have here, and then gotten no replies, PM or emails to where my flashlight is ? i would be not in a happy mood... If you add up the amount of money he has collected for lights still not delivered, that to me is theft , So why is theft Not a Violation of CPF Terms Of Service ? Or TOS ? .... it may be a private sale , but it gives CPF a bad rap as a site on the internet ... there are people here waiting for a product, and Mac as a Courtesy , as a business person should be providing answers to these people...
    You are correct, people who are still waiting are not happy, nor should they be. They are even less happy when they stumble across these threads and get the wrong idea. CPF is not going to step in. Lawyers are not going to step in. The Better Business Bureau is not going to step in. Law enforcement is (probably) not going to step in. And so reading/posting those suggestions is not going to help fix the problem.

    The reason I am active in this forum is to help existing owners with their lights and to help outstanding customers reach closure, either with their orders or monetary compensation. As far as I can see, sounding the alarm and calling for the end of this forum accomplishes neither of those two things. It's easy to jump into this mess to complain about Mac. I'm not here for Mac. I'm here for everyone who currently owns or has paid for a light from him. If you really want to see people get closure, it would be more productive to help them get it than to join in the cry of "fire!".

    As for the bad rap, I doubt that quite frankly. Show me a forum where a maker/dealer has not flaked.
    On ne voit bien qu'avec le cur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* RUSH FAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    IsaacL:

    Kudos to your well written point by point writing.
    Yes, there are still many of us who still review information on this subforum for: new modifications, help on fixing things, tips, and even to just look at some nice Mac's flashlights!
    I vote to keep the subforum open.

    Thanks,

    Rush

  24. #24

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Thanks Rush. FWIW, I don't entirely disagree with NBP. I would just like to see some resolution before this central meeting area is dispersed. He is completely right that Lummi and Mac's forums look bad when seen next to the other upstanding makers. The threads themselves would still be around.
    On ne voit bien qu'avec le cur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    yea bbb is a joke, they want you to pay to make a complaint first.

    my mother always says, if you lost money, say "thank you god, you took it in cash"

  26. #26
    Administrator Greta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacL View Post


    Having said that, I firmly believe that closure has not been reached for the customers with outstanding orders. Furthermore, there has been substantial activity surrounding Mac's lights in the past year. There are over 2 dozens threads with posts from 2014 in this forum alone, even more if you look back to last October. In addition, there have been countless sales of Mac's lights in both of the sale forums. Perhaps even more importantly, there has been a ton of support from community members to repair and modify existing lights. All of that would likely be nixed if this subforum were dissolved immediately. Is that fair to the people who own Mac's lights?

    Finally, Mac has indeed been active, even if not to the fullest extent necessary. I have received emails from him, others have received emails from him, Gonefishing just received a light, Mac left a message on the website, then he shut down his website. There is no longer any issue of people ordering new lights without knowing the current situation.



    ... If you really want to see people get closure, it would be more productive to help them get it than to join in the cry of "fire!".

    What he said...

  27. #27
    Unenlightened
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Another one here.

    My old man ordered two lights in September of 2013. It's now been over a year. No lights, and no communication.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Ordered a copper tri-edc nearly TWO YEARS AGO and still no light. Here's the only communication:

    Will please send me your mailing address. You ordered a High CRI Copper Tri-EDC with clip? I'll take care of it ASAP.

    Mac




    Originally Posted by willchance
    Hey Mac, wondering what's up with my light. Seen that you've responded to other people's PMs emails etc. So what's the deal? You cashed the check for a copper tri-EDC in November of 2012. Only word from you is this PM from June 2013.



    Originally Posted by cmacclel

    Originally Posted by willchance
    Not sure if my emails sent to spam. Was reading on some posts that that was the most common problem with orders. I ordered a Copper Tri EDC w high CRI on 11/8. Check went through on 11/28.

    Hope all's well.

    ~W



    Will sorry about the confusion. I have a copper host ready for you and have some High CRI's new Cree XP-G2's due in this week. I will get your light out ASAP.

    Thanks!

    Please confirm your shipping address so there is no confusion







  29. #29
    Flashaholic
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    I would personally like to see the forum remain open as I have a number of Mac's lights and enjoy being able to read and share comments about them in this forum. If this forum were to be shut down I would find it very detrimental and many of us that love our Mac's lights would be worse off for it. Just MHO...

    My sympathies go out to all who have not received their lights, but I just can't see how closing this forum would help to resolve or help that situation.

    Seems like apples and oranges to me....

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Better Business Bureau

    Just a reminder, closing a forum doesn't close the threads. They can be put anywhere and members can continue to participate in them as per usual.

    In my eyes, a subforum is a privilege, not a right. It gives a custom maker a special place to interact with members and customers. If a maker no longer even visits their subforum, then its original purpose has been lost.

    If the only purpose of a subforum was to collect threads on a specific brand for fans to congregate, why not have subforums for every brand? Should not Surefire and Fenix have their own subforums too then? Obviously, that is not the point then, is it?

    Furthermore, for those who say dissolving those subforums and dispersing the threads will not solve problems, I would say neither does leaving them open. Rob and Mac don't communicate through them anyways. I dunno.

    I have nothing more to say on this topic really. Apparently, my objective was either not clearly expressed or simply not shared by others. Oh well.

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