Confused in Colorado

RalphJameson

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Joined
Oct 7, 2014
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2
I'm new to quality flashlights and I could use some insight. I've noticed that some lights might have higher lumen output but lower beam intensity than a comparison flashlight.

As an example, the Nitecore P15 has a max of 430 lumens and a peak beam intensity of 19,321cd, whereas the Nitecore P12 has a greater lumen rating of 950 but a lesser beam intensity of 12,450cd.

1) Is beam intensity largely a factor of reflector size/shape?
2) Would I be correct in saying that throw distance is more a function of beam intensity than lumen output?
3) Is lumen rating solely a function of light emitted from the diode or is is effected by reflector size.
4) Everybody seems to talk about lumen output but not much about cd. Is cd rating much of a concern?

Just trying to sort out a few variables that are new to me.
RJ
 

StarHalo

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Dec 4, 2007
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1,2) Yes
3) Lumens are the the gross amount of visible light coming out of the emitter only, no consideration for how the light is reflected or redirected.
4) cd = candela, or the amount of light being emitted in the one specific direction where it is most greatly concentrated. This can be misleading since an emitter might have a tiny bright spot and be otherwise dim. For flashlights, Lux is the better measurement since it tells you the amount of light falling on a given area at a given distance.
 

Polargirl

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Mar 19, 2014
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Always a joy seeing a new budding flashaholic.

At the very least, having one more flashlight educated person is plenty good. It makes me cringe hearing people say how great of a light they got at Home Depot or worse, Walmart.

The flashlight industry is probably the most poorly marketed industry out there.
 

martinaee

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Sep 16, 2012
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Ohio
Always a joy seeing a new budding flashaholic.

At the very least, having one more flashlight educated person is plenty good. It makes me cringe hearing people say how great of a light they got at Home Depot or worse, Walmart.

The flashlight industry is probably the most poorly marketed industry out there.

Are you dissing my plastic yellow Rayovac 6v alkaline "portable" search light? I got it at K-mart and it's totally the jam. It seriously sounds like you are dissing it. :naughty:
 

Fireclaw18

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Mar 16, 2011
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2,408
Couple other things to keep in mind:
1. In general, the wider the optic or reflector the better the throw. As such, it's rather hard to get great throw from a pocket light, since pocket lights aren't wide.

2. Another factor in throw is the surface brightness of the emitter. A big dim emitter won't throw as well as a small, but intense, emitter. However, the larger emitters usually produce more lumens. This is because smaller emitters tend to have higher surface brightness (lumens per square mm), while the larger emitters tend to make up for their lower surface brightness with a larger surface area emitting light.
 

Derek Dean

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Monterey, CA
Hey Forrest, after 7 years of dancing around the edge of the pool, it's nice to see you finally decided to jump in and join the fun. A big 'ole welcome to you too!
 

ACruceSalus

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Mar 2, 2014
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USA
RalphJameson,

Welcome to CPF. You'll find a lot of knowledgeable helpful people here. I have two pieces of information you may be interested in.

1. Almost all flashlight manufacturers' advertised lumens are higher than what they really put out. Search for Selfbuilt's reviews on CPF to get the best real world lumen values for those flashlights he reviews.
2. Perceived "brightness" is complicated but not linear. For example 900 lumens will not look twice as bright as 450 lumens.
 

880arm

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Aug 29, 2011
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Wildlands of Western Kentucky
:welcome: RalphJameson

. . . 4) Everybody seems to talk about lumen output but not much about cd. Is cd rating much of a concern? . . .

With regard to #4, candela or lux (beam intensity) is just as important as lumens (output). Like with a lot of other products, a flashlight's performance cannot be summed up with a single metric.

Say for example you take two lights with identical output (lumens). One has a very tightly concentrated beam (high candela) and the other has a broad floody beam (lower candela). Obviously the first will be better suited for reaching out to distance but it may also cause excessive glare if used for up close tasks. On the flip side, the second light won't be able to reach as far but may provide more even and effective illumination for those same up close tasks. However, there are more variables than just these two metrics so additional information, such as beamshot photos, helps paint a more complete picture.

Lumens has become the most popular measurement with manufacturers, in my opinion, as it is the one that has grown the most over the years and has been the easiest to show "improvement" in. In that regard it's similar to how computer CPU speeds and camera megapixel ratings were the most marketed metrics for those products for several years.
 

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
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NJ
I'm new to quality flashlights and I could use some insight. I've noticed that some lights might have higher lumen output but lower beam intensity than a comparison flashlight.

As an example, the Nitecore P15 has a max of 430 lumens and a peak beam intensity of 19,321cd, whereas the Nitecore P12 has a greater lumen rating of 950 but a lesser beam intensity of 12,450cd.

1) Is beam intensity largely a factor of reflector size/shape?
2) Would I be correct in saying that throw distance is more a function of beam intensity than lumen output?
3) Is lumen rating solely a function of light emitted from the diode or is is effected by reflector size.
4) Everybody seems to talk about lumen output but not much about cd. Is cd rating much of a concern?

Just trying to sort out a few variables that are new to me.
RJ



Go Here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Easy-to-Understand-Lumens-Vs-Lux-Explanation


:D


Summary of your Inquiry:

1) Partly

2) Yes

3) Partly

4) It depends on the context


Lumens represent the light sent out into the darkness....as a total quantity of light. You can't see lumens, you can only see lumens that were sent out of the light if they hit something and bounce back to your eyes.

What you SEE essentially, is what we call lux. The brighter the target looks, the higher the lux.


If you have a given lumen output, and concentrate it into a smaller area on a target, that area will look brighter (Have a higher lux value). If you spread those same lumens out over a wider area, the area will look dimmer.


An ordinary 100 watt light bulb might be putting out ~ 1,800 lumens, but, you could not see very far with it, because the lumens are very spread out. If you put a reflector behind that bulb, it takes ~ 1/2 the light that was "going the wrong way", and sends all the light more in one direction....so you would see farther with that same bulb, and so forth.


Lux is the lumens per square meter, so, whatever the beam size is, at a given distance, that's the square meters of target it's illuminating. The more lumens hitting the target, the more lumens per those square meters...and the brighter it will look.

cd, for throwers, is the BACK CALCULATED lux at one meter, as a way of standardizing the comparisons in throw. If you know the lux at one meter, you can calculate the lux at any given distance.


Lumens are of course generated by the LED, but, there are more factors to the flashlight's total output in lumens than just which LED, some examples:

The LED could be driven harder to it put out more lumens, or softer, to produce fewer lumens, perhaps to allow it to run longer on a set of cells, etc.

The LED could be positioned so that some of the lumens are bouncing back into the flashlight through the hole in the reflector. (The depth and orientation/centering, etc, of the LED relative to the reflector bowl, etc)

The flashlight could have a glass or plastic lens that is not 100% transparent to light, so that the lens is absorbing or reflecting some light back, and less than 100% of the LED's output is able to escape, and go light something for you. This difference can be visually noticeable in some cases where a poor lens is used, with losses in double digit percentages being somewhat common.

The LED could have a dome over it, or, have no dome. The de-domed LED presents a smaller point of light to the reflector, which is easier to focus (A reflector works best with a theoretical point source, so, the larger the area that is emitting the light (the LED, etc), the softer the focus will be. A de-domed LED has a smaller effective surface area than if its dome were still on, and, can therefore throw farther, as the light will be closer to a point source in nature. IE: A smaller LED with the same lumen output can generally throw farther than a larger LED with the same lumen output. The LARGER LED's lumen out put would have to be enough to compensate for its larger area, to out throw the smaller LED. Some XML2 (A larger LED) lights CAN out throw XPG2 (A smaller LED) lights because the XML2 CAN be run hard enough to compensate for their larger size for example.

Of course, generally, the larger the LED, the larger the reflector would be to take advantage of it/have the geometry to allow focusing of it:


For an LED, the DEPTH of the reflector bowl is often more important than the diameter, as an LED throws most of its light forward, not back into the bowl, so a deeper bowl is needed to have more of the escaping light hit it, but both play an important role in how well the light is collimated.


For a normal reflector, we see a hot spot, where the most concentrated part of the beam is, a bright circle of light centered in the beam typically. Around that is a donut of somewhat dimmer but still bright light called the corona. Light that missed the reflector (The bowl wasn't as wide or as deep as needed for the lumens made by the LED to hit the reflector bowl and be bounced back in to be focused and collimated)...just randomly spills out, and is called "spill".

So, for most lights, that means SOME of the lumens are in the hot spot (The most important part for throw), and SOME of the lumens are in the corona (Useful for medium range beam thickness so you can see more at a time), and SOME of the lumens will be in the spill (Which some people like as it provides some soft lighting for seeing simultaneously close up, even though your flashlight is mostly searching off in the distance, etc)

The PROPORTIONS of the lumens in these three beam parts, and the SHAPE/AREA of each part, dictate the overall beam characteristics.

For example, if two lights have the same exact throw, one could do it with 1,000 lumens, and one could do it with 10,000 lumens...but one of the beams shows just a man's head at 100', and the other shows the man's head, torso, and the 30 other guys standing next to him and where they tied up their horses.

:D

One light's hot spot might be fatter, with a smaller corona, another might have a teeny hot spot with a large corona, and so forth.

The cd only tells you how far you could see what at, but not how much of the target will be illuminated, just the distance. (Could be the same cd with 1,000 lumens or 10,000 lumens, etc)

The lumens tell you the total output, but not the distribution.

The beam angles can tell you more about the distribution, but, you'd need the beam angles for the hot spot and the corona to get a reasonable overall characterization of the type of beam a flashlight might be sending out.


The ways to evaluate a flashlight's beam are quite varied, and as mentioned, focusing on one metric, such as lumens, or cd, is like buying car solely on its horsepower, or mpg, etc....rather than considering its weight relative to that horsepower or cargo/passenger capacity relative to that mpg, and so forth.

I hope that gives some context for you.

:D
 
Last edited:

TRW3

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Joined
Jul 5, 2014
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22
TEEJ,


You sammuriazed the topic! you are the folded steel of flashaholism. Thank you for your DETAILED summary!!

Much to learn from it all.
 

magellan

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Feb 3, 2014
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Location
USA
Welcome to the wonderful and sometimes a little wacky world of high end flashlights and flashlight knowledge.

Just wanted to second the earlier post that you're already on the right track. Welcome to the CPF!
 
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