Is this the general view of people on here also. Just curious.

I saw in another forum someone said this and everyone agreed with them.


"Very high cap NiMh generally means >> poor performance.
It's all marketing and very little substance. A few are OK, but with the problems of high self-discharge it generally isn't worth it. If you have to ask...don't go there."

Is that the general belief on here also.



I have tested my own different capacity batteries and I don't see them match up to what the guy is claiming in the quote.

So what is meant by "performance".

Surely it's one of these or a few of these attributes combined.

1. Low rate of self discharge.
2. High cycle rate.
3. Ampere output.
4. Charge efficiency.

But from what I have seen the higher capacity batteries are not poor performers. So what is he talking about?

I have heard some people claim that mAh capacities are marketing gimmicks but that is absolutely stupid.

Higher capacity batteries have more material in them and are heavier. My 3000mAh NIMH batteries are like 4 times heavier than the 200mAh ones I pulled out of some solar lights. lol

Same with lead acid batteries, More plates, more surface area. The Ah is not a marketing gimmick. Sigh.


That being said of course the claimed mAh of many batteries are slightly exaggerated. But most are close to their stated capacity. Except fraudulent crap that is typical to buy off ebay from China that have no brand.

zionosis said:

I have heard some people claim that mAh capacities are marketing gimmicks but that is absolutely stupid.

Click to expand...

Check this eBay sale for impossibly high mAh rated 18650 cells. There is no 18650 available today that is even close to 6000 mAh

2/4x 18650 6000mAh Rechargeable Li-ion Battery + WF-139 AU Charger CM

Norm said:

Check this eBay sale for impossibly high mAh rated 18650 cells. There is no 18650 available today that is even close to 6000 mAh

2/4x 18650 6000mAh Rechargeable Li-ion Battery + WF-139 AU Charger CM

Click to expand...

Did you see where I said this.

"That being said of course the claimed mAh of many batteries are slightly exaggerated. But most are close to their stated capacity. Except fraudulent crap that is typical to buy off ebay from China that have no brand."

I am well aware of fraudulent crap but actual mAh ratings from proper companies is not a marketing gimmick. Just as going to the store and buying a 100Ah 12v deep cycle is not a marketing gimmick and far different from buying a 40Ah deep cycle 12v battery.

This is why they cost more and are heavier. The more surface area and plates the higher the capacity and even the higher currents can be produced.


So why are you cherry picking something from my post and then posting some stupid Chinese ebay fraudulent items?

So in your head you guys think this! "Oh some Chinese thing on ebay that is an obvious forgery of figures means that rated capacities done by Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, etc are all in the same regard.

Just wow. Sigh. Thanks for trolling me because surely you must be.

For you to read my whole post and believe I am not talking about real battery technology and actually talking about fraudulent Chinese products with literally forged figures is just too hard to believe. Surely you are just trolling.


I mean you must be trolling. If you aren't then just wow.

Not too sure why you've started this thread, you already seem to have all the answers.

Norm

I get the feeling that was sarcasm. As in I don't have any of the answers. Well whatever. That's your belief. I want to see what others think on here before I judge all on here.

I wonder if you guys believe that cooling capacity in KW of air conditioners is a marketing gimmick also.


Maybe I am unaware of what "marketing gimmick" means. I always thought it was when something is overly exaggerated or barely even true and used as a large selling point. Such as saying a 4ghz CPU and to the normal person who doesn't know much they think that it's as simple as more ghz means more powerful CPU. That is what I consider a marketing gimmick. Where false assumptions are made to trick customers.


Most skin creams are just marketing gimmicks tricking many women. I am talking about when they claim it is absorbed into the skin and does magic and makes you look younger. In reality it's absorbed into the top layer which is dead skin cells and the under layer is actually waterproof so the larger compounds in creams have no way of getting though the membrane if a small water molecule cannot.
But many people get tricked easily over things that are simple.


Then there are people into conspiracy theories. I guess I always just am uneasy when I see people believe stupid things that are easily provable to be incorrect. I just don't want to believe that there are people that believe those things. Makes me feel sad.

If your point is that there are 'good,' quality HSD batteries like the Sanyo 2700s and others like perhaps my AccuPower 2900s (for a while at least,) then I agree with you.

Hi cap HSD NiMH batteries have their place and their pros and cons.

Chris

I also notice that no matter what you say many people on most forums will argue with you even if the things is easily a provable fact.

For instance I explained on a forum that water is not clear and actually absorbs red light and scatters blue light and others.
But it doesn't matter how factual you are people I notice will argue to their death. Either they don't want to accept being wrong or they simply think they are right and don't understand.

ChrisGarrett said:

If your point is that there are 'good,' quality HSD batteries like the Sanyo 2700s and others like perhaps my AccuPower 2900s (for a while at least,) then I agree with you.

Hi cap HSD NiMH batteries have their place and their pros and cons.

Chris

Click to expand...

Wow thanks.

Thanks for being decent.

As far as Hi Cap HSD having their place and pros and cons. Of course. Every battery has it's pro's and cons and has a suitable purpose but won't be suitable for other purposes.
I agree of course.

zionosis said:

Wow thanks.

Thanks for being decent.

As far as Hi Cap HSD having their place and pros and cons. Of course. Every battery has it's pro's and cons and has a suitable purpose but won't be suitable for other purposes.
I agree of course.

Click to expand...

The people who hang out on this sub-forum are pretty well versed in things electrical. I don't get into the nuts and bolts of drivers, or electrical circuits because I just don't know enough about them, but I have some decent lights, batteries, li-ion cells and chargers and I don't mind sharing my experiences.

I don't know where you're reading all of these 'claims' that HSD batteries are junk, as this place and BudgetLightForums seem to know better, but I hang out on AR15.com and in the Survival and General sections, there are a lot of people who claim that their TrustFire stuff is the cat's meow, just because that stuff hasn't blown up on them yet.

Just because something works, doesn't mean that it's working well, or will work well for a length of time, but there is a lot of ignorance out there, from what I've seen.

I like my AccuPower 2900s even though they didn't come too close to 2900mAh, or even 1200mAh for my AAAs, but for at least two years, they've worked reasonably well (getting higher I.R.s right now vs. the Sanyos and Eneloops,) but I don't think that even with some added capacity, I'd buy them again.

Now, on the other hand, my Sanyo 2700 HSDs have been better and if not for the Duracell Duraloop Iron Core (Eneloop XX/Pros possibly) being available for cheap, I'd buy them again.

As for the friction that you feel that you've received here, it's possible that you came in here atop a 'soapbox,' but the best way to educate people is to do it in a calm, less abrasive manner, IMO.

With what I have learned here on this particular forum, I'm able to slowly educate people over on ARF.com and the members are starting to at least give my 'opinions' some weight, with regards to quality stuff.

It's funny, but there's a recent post from a fellow with a generic 'Cree' bike light and battery pack. He posts a picture of the exact same light/7.4v pack literally blowing up on the owner.

He took offense to me suggesting that if a person had to save money on a light/cells, they should skimp on toilet paper and lite beer, as cheap li-ion cells and chargers are something that a prudent person wouldn't want to 'save' on.

His picture kind of proved my point for others to see and hopefully some of them don't make the same mistake.

Chris

ETA: Exploding cell pack photos: Grenaded on the 4th charge.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12903689&

Sometimes the capacity of a high capacity NiMH battery is exaggerated. It mostly depends on the brand and how long the batteries have been sitting for. I don't trust HSD cells much, the higher capacity cells either since they can degrade easily. It doesn't mean they are bad or they degrade, it's just from my experience that they don't last as long. Including Eneloop pros the recharge cycles on them are less so as they age or if you happen to use up all the cycles, performance does degrade. They still might be useful in low drain devices but they often turn into crap cells faster than the lower capacity cells do.

Why is this thread posted in the Café instead of the Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included forum? Just curious. :thinking: Moved there, it would have a better chance of receiving more educated posts.

~ Chance

Chauncey Gardiner said:

Why is this thread posted in the Café instead of the Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included forum? Just curious. :thinking: Moved there, it would have a better chance of receiving more educated posts.

~ Chance

Click to expand...

The tone of the thread, IMO, was going south for whatever reason, even from the get-go. Then there were tangents like women's skin creme being a joke and water really not being clear and we started moving down a road better placed elsewhere.

There were no links, or quotes, from people making the alleged assertions that HSD batteries have no place in the modern world, so it's tough to argue against a possible strawman.

Added to that issue, the obvious fact that people make grandiose claims every day and well, it was probably best to get rid of it. Norm just moved it and didn't close the thread, so we're still 'here.'

It's not the first thread that the OP has started, where he might want to tone down the rhetoric and not come in with both guns blazing, IMO.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the back-story. A hat-tip to Norm for being so patient and accommodating, and another one to you for being so gracious. :thumbsup:

~ Chance lovecpf

It was late last night when this went on. I drank literally almost a gallon of iced tea during the day and was up 'til 6 am this morning and Norm was up and about doing his daily stuff, so we kind of communicated via a couple of PMs.

OP seems(ed) to have a beef with some unknown people over on another site, but wanted to slug it out here on CPF, without a lot of back-story, but for some vague and worthless reference.

I guess the bigger question to CPFers should be:

What percentage of 'over-promising' or 'mis-labeling' mAh ratings should/would each of us tolerate?

The consumer in me would say 5%, keeping in mind that there will be some variation in production samples, but 10% might make me think a bit more, about what I got.

Could you imagine buying a six pack of 12oz bottles of beer and then only getting 10.8oz?

I just pulled my notes from early 2012 for my 8 new AccuPower 2900s and after a full break-in on my C-9000, I got:

2460 mAh

2393

2359

2408

2404

2413

2379

2441

Pretty consistent battery to battery, with an averge capacity of 2407mAh, but that's a whopping 17% under the wrapper's claimed "up to 2900mAh."

They've worked well for a stretch and they do offer 20% more capacity than the Gen. 2 Eneloops that I bought at the same time, but 17% and 2900mAh are not kosher.

There's a 'mAh rating war' going on, so I can see AccuPower and PowerEx going against each other, with the higher numbers, but my samples probably should have been labeled as 2500mAh, or even 2600mAh, to be within my threshold.

In contrast to the Accupowers, my 8 Sanyo 2700s were between 2512mAh-2754mAh--a bigger 'extreme spread' for that test, but much closer to the claimed capacity on the wrapper.

Chris

Chauncey Gardiner said:

Why is this thread posted in the Café instead of the Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included forum? Just curious. :thinking: Moved there, it would have a better chance of receiving more educated posts.

~ Chance

Click to expand...

Since the OP is going from mAh to air conditioners to CPU's to skin creams to water clarity, at least one CPF staff member is of the opinion that The Café is the only subforum that will effectively contain such a diverse group of topics.

Kestrel said:

Since the OP is going from mAh to air conditioners to CPU's to skin creams to water clarity, at least one CPF staff member is of the opinion that The Café is the only subforum that will effectively contain such a diverse group of topics.

Click to expand...

I read through this and wondered what the hell was going on.

Maybe it should be merged with the thread killer thread

As for mAH claims, CPU speeds and air-con KW claims - they're not supposed to be for marketing, they're specifications. They get hijacked by marketing departments, sadly. All of these things are easily tested and verified, even if they lie on the packet.

Stick to reliable brands with reliable specs and all will be well.

Kestrel said:

Since the OP is going from mAh to air conditioners to CPU's to skin creams to water clarity, at least one CPF staff member is of the opinion that The Café is the only subforum that will effectively contain such a diverse group of topics.

Click to expand...

Perhaps it should be placed.....

mvyrmnd said:

I read through this and wondered what the hell was going on.

Maybe it should be merged with the thread killer thread

Click to expand...

....er, never mind.

~ Chance

I didn't get that at all from Norm's post. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was agreeing with you by providing another pretty egregious example.

As ChrisG said, there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here about batteries and flashlight related subjects. I would include Norm among them.

zionosis said:

I get the feeling that was sarcasm. As in I don't have any of the answers. Well whatever. That's your belief. I want to see what others think on here before I judge all on here.

I wonder if you guys believe that cooling capacity in KW of air conditioners is a marketing gimmick also.


Maybe I am unaware of what "marketing gimmick" means. I always thought it was when something is overly exaggerated or barely even true and used as a large selling point. Such as saying a 4ghz CPU and to the normal person who doesn't know much they think that it's as simple as more ghz means more powerful CPU. That is what I consider a marketing gimmick. Where false assumptions are made to trick customers.


Most skin creams are just marketing gimmicks tricking many women. I am talking about when they claim it is absorbed into the skin and does magic and makes you look younger. In reality it's absorbed into the top layer which is dead skin cells and the under layer is actually waterproof so the larger compounds in creams have no way of getting though the membrane if a small water molecule cannot.
But many people get tricked easily over things that are simple.


Then there are people into conspiracy theories. I guess I always just am uneasy when I see people believe stupid things that are easily provable to be incorrect. I just don't want to believe that there are people that believe those things. Makes me feel sad.

Click to expand...