PD35 and P12 and Surefire E1D real test

PD35 = $70
P12 = $60
E1D Surefire = $200
and the price may vary from place to place

I got
3 of PD35
2 of P12
and 6 of 18650 Panasonic batteries

they both, PD35 and P12, comes from China, so I always had some reserve on their reliability and could not get confidence in them. So I got and one Surefire E1D with several rechargeable batteries AW, recommended by Surefire, and now I am OK.

They all slipped into my hunting backpack, and one PD35 was attached at outside for ready of use. All Chinese were now just a spare flashlight to my Surefire E1D, and they should get in play if something go wrong with E1D or its battery. It was a plan.

It was cold night, -32 deg.C, and left outside 1 of each PD35 and P12. After an hour or two, I got 'em and turn on, all works.
This wintertime, 2015, it was very cold outside in Northern Ontario (Canada), especially at night, and had to go in woods with my hunting backpack. Flash lights got used and my life, literally, started to ride on them.
P12-Nitecore with 1 lm: Chinese claim 500 h with 2500 mAh battery, at say 20 deg.C, and I had around 3500 mAh new batteries so expect c. 700 h at full charge. But my batteries was charged to 3.9-4.0 V, and at this cold nights I expected 20-30 h.
First I used PD35, then P12, and as last Surefire E1D (not as planned).
When I returned to my home, after 10 days, I had in my hand E1D. All of six 18650 were for re-charge. Chinese light failed my expectitions, and E1D is, to me non-replaceable flash-light, real life saver when need to. I just regret I did not buy one more E1d instead of all these chinese.
What happened to chinese light is long story, but.
P12 Nitecore: run-time is only a small fraction of what they claim, even at 1 lm ouput. Voltmeter work well (checked with Fluke DMM-289).
PD35 Fenix: it runs on 15 lm as lowest output. Run-time much less than claimed, might be only 20% of claim.
And for that 900-1000 lm, for both of them. You can see it only for seconds after you get in just charged battery, and so high drain drops voltage very fast to level not enough for this output.
I learned about Surefire on this forum, and E1D is far over what I expected, in term of color-temperature, light-spill, reliability, run-time, durability of black coat, …
To me: I will get chinese PD35 or P12 only for city walking at night. It is not good for "serious" or critical use. Black coating starts to peel-off soon, they get mist inside the reflector. I think also that they do not make any difference between glass anti-reflective coat and colored coat (on the glass of the reflector). Machining of the Aluminum case is nothing behind Surefire quality.
Even I think chinese lights are designed by some high-paid retired US/German enginners, they are still made in china, and I think it is better to spare some more money and to buy good Surefire E1D. The price is not as big as quality and reliability are.

Here we go!

I have a craving for Chinese food for some reason.

I think your comparison is totally unfair.

You are comparing flashlights which is about 1/4 to 1/3 in price to your surefire e1d.

Obviously you are paying for the differences in terms of quality here.

Kalpn said:

I think your comparison is totally unfair.

You are comparing flashlights which is about 1/4 to 1/3 in price to your surefire e1d.

Obviously you are paying for the differences in terms of quality here.

Click to expand...

yes, i think so

Am sure Surefire quality is better then the other brands you mentioned but, -32C.. No wonder those li-ion 18650s didn't work as they suppose to. A CR123 can work in those temperatures, but a 18650 is rated at max -15/-20 Celsius.

kalpn
the point is that a flashlight, no matter the price, should work for what is it intended. Regardless the price all 3, PD35, P12 and E1D are intended for very similar purpose, and only E1D do its job, while other two did not. 18650 are rated for -20 and up, but it does not means they are not able to work outside the limits. Only its run-time is reduced, and is out of spec. E1D was also on Surefire rechargeable battery, which is only 750 mAh full-charge.
PD35 and P12 shows very large drain, and its run-time far below rated, even at 23 deg.C inside my house. What is the reason is not important to me, and probably are : solders quality and its electrical resistance, electronic design, might be some near-cracks in the board and connection are very small section, .....
If one need a flashlight, it all turns that PD35 and P12 are actually more expensive than E1D, and this is not correct if one have intention to keep them all inside the house.

I'm not pretending to be expert, I just want to point out that here we have lights with different voltage range. For the first two lights it is much wider than for the Surefire, and you have tasted them with battery on the lower end of the range.
By my opinion if you want objectively to compare this lights in extreme low temperature condition, you should compare them with same type of batteries, with 123 primaries or rcrs.

For those conditions, you need more specialty lights. I, for one, don't need to pay up for Surefires. I'm sure they are "more reliable", but I'd rather have three very good quality lights, than one high quality light. You do get what you pay for, but like many things there is a sweet spot of quality and price. There are diminishing returns at both the high end and low end.


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"but like many things there is a sweet spot of quality and price. There are diminishing returns at both the high end and low end."

Here Here!

Very well said.

I'm Not buying $5-$10 lights, and I'm Not buying single cell lights that are $200.

The norm (for me) is the midrange priced competition, and to tell the truth, I'm still sitting this one out... Waiting for Nitecore to realise that 210lum to 960lum is just not right. - Let's do 960 (turbo) to 500/400 (high), and not let it step down from there. - ? Can this be done?

Not just singling out Nitecore, because it seems that all of them leave something to be desired.

Was looking at the Thrunite 2c V2, but I dunno...

Thanks,
-Chuck

I dunno...

Fenix and Nitecore products are designed and manufactured by Chinese. However, I do not think it would effect their reliablity and functions. You tested these models with your own strong prejudice about USA-made and Chinese-made. I won't think this thread make any sense. At least you should test them with the same conditions.

DanielOB said:

PD35 = $70 P12 = $60 E1D Surefire = $200 and the price may vary from place to place I got 3 of PD35 2 of P12 and 6 of 18650 Panasonic batteries they both, PD35 and P12, comes from China, so I always had some reserve on their reliability and could not get confidence in them. So I got and one Surefire E1D with several rechargeable batteries AW, recommended by Surefire, and now I am OK. They all slipped into my hunting backpack, and one PD35 was attached at outside for ready of use. All Chinese were now just a spare flashlight to my Surefire E1D, and they should get in play if something go wrong with E1D or its battery. It was a plan. It was cold night, -32 deg.C, and left outside 1 of each PD35 and P12. After an hour or two, I got 'em and turn on, all works. This wintertime, 2015, it was very cold outside in Northern Ontario (Canada), especially at night, and had to go in woods with my hunting backpack. Flash lights got used and my life, literally, started to ride on them. P12-Nitecore with 1 lm: Chinese claim 500 h with 2500 mAh battery, at say 20 deg.C, and I had around 3500 mAh new batteries so expect c. 700 h at full charge. But my batteries was charged to 3.9-4.0 V, and at this cold nights I expected 20-30 h. First I used PD35, then P12, and as last Surefire E1D (not as planned). When I returned to my home, after 10 days, I had in my hand E1D. All of six 18650 were for re-charge. Chinese light failed my expectitions, and E1D is, to me non-replaceable flash-light, real life saver when need to. I just regret I did not buy one more E1d instead of all these chinese. What happened to chinese light is long story, but. P12 Nitecore: run-time is only a small fraction of what they claim, even at 1 lm ouput. Voltmeter work well (checked with Fluke DMM-289). PD35 Fenix: it runs on 15 lm as lowest output. Run-time much less than claimed, might be only 20% of claim. And for that 900-1000 lm, for both of them. You can see it only for seconds after you get in just charged battery, and so high drain drops voltage very fast to level not enough for this output. I learned about Surefire on this forum, and E1D is far over what I expected, in term of color-temperature, light-spill, reliability, run-time, durability of black coat, … To me: I will get chinese PD35 or P12 only for city walking at night. It is not good for "serious" or critical use. Black coating starts to peel-off soon, they get mist inside the reflector. I think also that they do not make any difference between glass anti-reflective coat and colored coat (on the glass of the reflector). Machining of the Aluminum case is nothing behind Surefire quality. Even I think chinese lights are designed by some high-paid retired US/German enginners, they are still made in china, and I think it is better to spare some more money and to buy good Surefire E1D. The price is not as big as quality and reliability are.

Click to expand...

Is it just me or do you state nowhere how you used the E1D?

I also think it pretty foolish to depend on lithium ion batteries like the NCR18650B in -30C temperatures. The discharge curves at -20C look pretty ugly as it is.

Pointless thread. How can you compare PD35 and P12 with E1D? It is obvious that the price and quality of the PD35 and P12 is lower than the E1D. It would make more sense to compare flashlights that are of similar quality and price and see how they perform in your 'real life' conditions. That would be a useful thread unlike this unnecessary thread.

The point is a flashlight usefulness in the conditions I was. And as of battery : the flashlights were in my hand, so battery temperature was c. -8 deg.C, net less for sure.
What is a point in the price difference, if a lower cost flashlight is out of use? The matter is a flashlight works as a helper or not.
It is fine that you like PD35 or P12 because of the price, but you will change your mind quickly when you get into serious conditions.

You tested the PD35 and P12 in cold extreme cold weather and only compared them to the E1D in terms of finish. The lights used ran shorter than you thought but as others before have said. It is due to the temp/battery so not the lights fault. If you had 18650 surefire light in the same conditions I'm sure it would have less runtime too.

None of the Chinese lights($70) actually failed on you. You said finish is better on the surefire($200). I think we are justified in comparing the price difference just for the finish??
I have to agree with the others and say that your conclusions are a little skewed. I'm more surprised you bought 5 Chinese lights in total!

-32oC is well bellow the recommended operating temp,so imo(be it right or wrong) the test is flawed from the start.

Do a run time test in more normal conditions,of which flashlight would be used for a better picture. -32oC requires dedicated equipment,or at least pre-warmed by body heat(inside jacket/coat).

I am sure a surefire will take more beating than the others,but general use(choice of modes)/run times/cost imo does not win for my specific uses............and it certainly does not involve -32oC temps..................

e1d certainly looks a nice light though,just the 123 cell and modes are not suited for me,other than that i really like the light/build/style/size

All I could pull from this "real test" were a bunch of personal opinions which conclude with "Chinese lights are inferior".

Well, guess what- though Surefire is "American Made", they are not classified as "Made in the USA". The distinction is because Surefire has parts made in places other than the USA. You might be surprised that some Surefire parts, such as LED's, have been known to be sourced from China!

I'm also a bit confused by the test. Can you clarify what you did in the ten day period? You say you put them in your hunting backpack, and that they were exposed to some extreme temperatures for ten days. Your result was that, withholding the Surefire, all of the lights died by battery failure. So basically the test demonstrated that CR123 will be more resilient than lithium-ion 18650 in extreme temperatures. I guess that's good to know, but it isn't a mark of any of these flashlights being inferior.

Perhaps a series of drop tests or water submersion tests would have been more conclusive to a real world environment.

For me the opinion of a hunter who used those flashlights for 10 days in the woods is worth much more than the usual tests in the usual reviews.

While I like that you wanted to test them in hard conditions, I'm not sure what you did in terms of testing. It seems like you took a bunch of lights at various states of charge into the cold and then came home to measure the voltage. I completely agree that real world use is very important, but that should come with some numbers, a methodology, consistency and some testing of different parameters.

I don't think this comparison really tells us anything, but if you could give some more information and with greater clarity it could be quite useful.