runtime legitamcy?

So the other day I was watching a video on youtube about a gentleman who reviewed the nitecore p12 vs fenix pd35, he mentioned that on turbo these lights last no more than 5 mins, and on the high setting they last for about 30-40 mins. According to the specs of both of these lights the official sites for both companies they claim a much higher runtime. The guy in the video mentioned that this is a marketing tactic.

So my question is, how long do these lights run for? haha .....are the specs on the web sites legit or do they burn out much quicker?

It's not so much about being a marketing trick. But more about being an informed consumer. Both the companies you cite publish performance specs to ANSI FL1 standards. Which is clearly marked on their websites. Have you taken the time to look up what this means?

ANSI FL1 runtime is when the light output is 10% of its initial output (measured 30sec after turning on). None of the companies claim you get 'x' output for 'y' time. They claim output and runtime separately. Think on it, this is no different to car companies giving power output in HP and fuel efficiency in mpg.

As for turbo outputs. Well it is unrealistic to think you can sustain this output for a long runtime. Understanding how the lights work will help a great deal here. Any light offering direct drive turbo modes will never be constant output. It is impossible when using a power source that depletes and also isn't constant, i.e. a battery.

Finding reviews that that contain runtime graphs is a good way to see how a light performs. Although bear in mind some torches will behave differently in different battery types. And runtime graphs are usually turn on and leave on until flat. Which isn't how most people use a torch typically. Eg torches that step down after 'x' amount of time. Usually if you turn these off and on again will return to the higher output again, until they step down again. But running it at higher output like this will shorten the runtime compare with turning it on once until it goes flat.

I'm not well versed on the exact technical criteria for these claims. However, I think a person should have a reasonable expectation of what these numbers mean without having to "take the time to look them up". Even though the previous poster uses a condescending tone, don't assume they know what they are talking about. To say that output and runtime are not correlated is ridiculous. They absolutely are, and the companies do make certain claims that are a bit more marketing hype than reality. Such as turbo runtimes, that are actually stepping down after a few minutes. Yes, being informed helps to understand it better, and I'm pretty sure that's why you asked in the first place.... I hope this helps.




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Berneck1 said:

I'm not well versed on the exact technical criteria for these claims. However, I think a person should have a reasonable expectation of what these numbers mean without having to "take the time to look them up". Even though the previous poster uses a condescending tone, don't assume they know what they are talking about. To say that output and runtime are not correlated is ridiculous. They absolutely are, and the companies do make certain claims that are a bit more marketing hype than reality. Such as turbo runtimes, that are actually stepping down after a few minutes. Yes, being informed helps to understand it better, and I'm pretty sure that's why you asked in the first place.... I hope this helps.




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Yes that helps quite a bit. I also was confused by output and runtime not correlating because on every company's web site they say exactly how much runtime you get for whatever amount of lumens you are running in a specific mode. I understand that most of these turbo mode run times are complete bullshit. My interest is in how accurate the runtimes for high and medium modes are.

Berneck1 said:

I'm not well versed on the exact technical criteria for these claims. However, I think a person should have a reasonable expectation of what these numbers mean without having to "take the time to look them up". Even though the previous poster uses a condescending tone, don't assume they know what they are talking about. To say that output and runtime are not correlated is ridiculous. They absolutely are, and the companies do make certain claims that are a bit more marketing hype than reality. Such as turbo runtimes, that are actually stepping down after a few minutes. Yes, being informed helps to understand it better, and I'm pretty sure that's why you asked in the first place.... I hope this helps.




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I concur. :thumbsup:

Chicken Drumstick said:

None of the companies claim you get 'x' output for 'y' time. They claim output and runtime separately.

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No they don't, really. Random example from a manual:

Output and Runtime

80 lumens /35min
20 lumens / 8h
0.5 lumens /60h

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Any reasonable person would read that as "80 lumens for 35min, 20 lumens for 8 hours, or 0.5 lumens for 60 hours". So the "20 lumens" can't in any reasonable, sensible way be seen as a claim that's separate from "8h". But in fact:

ANSI FL1 runtime is when the light output is 10% of its initial output (measured 30sec after turning on).

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There's the deceptive part of runtime claims. That is: if this ANSI method is used. Many flashlight manufacturers (or sellers) don't even bother using a formal, reproduceable method.

Of course as you fire up a light, you can expect some dimming shortly after. But a good measure of performance is how long the bulk of that initial output is held. Or vice versa, what output you have for the bulk of the runtime. For example, runtime until output drops <50% of initial output, would be a better measure. Or say, 60%. Or 70%. For output dropping below 99% from initial, runtime would be near-0, that's a pretty useless measure. So you have to draw the line somewhere. But let's be honest: 10% is just a really, really low % compared to what you start with. Resulting in a big discrepancy between what's expected, and what really happens.

For a complete picture, you measure the output using a reproduceable / calibrated method, and plot that in a graph against time. Then it's easy to see whether output drops quickly or not, stays flat or drops all the time, or hovers just above that 10% mark for most of the time. Surface area below that line is a measure for the total amount of light output, and that is what you should be comparing between lights. Using the same battery in same state of charge between runs.

That's where the more knowledgeable CPF members, integrating spheres, and (calibrated) lux meters come in...

Note that such runtime graphs are sometimes included in manuals. Whether those are accurate or not, is open to debate.

And then there are manufacturers who state runtime until 50 "tactical" lumens...which IMHO is alot more transparent than ANSI ratings. Also, the regulation of the former is usually flatter meaning more constant brightness.

dc38 said:

And then there are manufacturers who state runtime until 50 "tactical" lumens...which IMHO is alot more transparent than ANSI ratings. Also, the regulation of the former is usually flatter meaning more constant brightness.

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Is anybody else sick of the word "tactical" like I am? Lol


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This is why I always test any new flashlight I buy.

If runtime and reliability matters to you, I recommend doing a full runtime test when you first get a light. I usually do these in high mode (not turbo as I worry the light will overheat - plus turbo modes have a stepdown on many newer lights). I can then see what kind of runtime I can expect from my own batteries, and make sure the light is not defective.

Edit: If you can do this during the evening and use the light as "mood lighting" at the same time while watching TV or so, even better

I also do side-by-side tests for output and runtime, but on the lower modes I use most often. You quickly get a sense of which manufacturers are full of BS, and which are being honest (the ANSI standard is no standard at all). Even free smartphone light meter apps and $5 lightbox's will be far more accurate than what you can see.

Berneck1 said:

Is anybody else sick of the word "tactical" like I am? Lol


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There is a whole other thread concerning this...the general concensus is: tactical is, as tactical does. Regarding runtimes though, I still think that the inferred company uses the most transparent runtime ratings along with some of the flattest regulation of any manufacturer.

dc38 said:

There is a whole other thread concerning this...the general concensus is: tactical is, as tactical does. Regarding runtimes though, I still think that the inferred company uses the most transparent runtime ratings along with some of the flattest regulation of any manufacturer.

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Yeah, I know what you mean, it's more of a what you see is what you get. There definitely should be a better "real-use" standard.


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natk171 said:

So the other day I was watching a video on youtube about a gentleman who reviewed the nitecore p12 vs fenix pd35, he mentioned that on turbo these lights last no more than 5 mins, and on the high setting they last for about 30-40 mins. According to the specs of both of these lights the official sites for both companies they claim a much higher runtime. The guy in the video mentioned that this is a marketing tactic.

So my question is, how long do these lights run for? haha .....are the specs on the web sites legit or do they burn out much quicker?

Click to expand...

I don't know about the P12, but I can tell you that the Fenix PD35 has timed stepdowns to protect the light from overheating. If you set it to Turbo, it will step down to High after approximately 5 minutes. It then steps down to Medium after approximately 30 minutes.

However, this is not a marketing tactic, it's a necessary engineering compromise because the light is physically too small to dissipate that much heat. If Fenix didn't design it to step down, it would become too hot to hold, the LED would fail prematurely, or both.

You can switch the light back up to Turbo or High immediately after it steps down, if you really need lots of light for longer, but you do so at your own risk of damaging the light and/or injuring yourself on hot parts. The long runtimes quoted by Fenix roughly correspond to what you'd get if you kept switching the light back up until the battery died.

You can find Selfbuilt's review of the PD35 (with runtime graphs) here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-2xCR123A-RCR)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIME-VIDEO

Marketing departments have concluded that the average consumer is not interested in specifications that are specific, as they would often be long, require explanation, and cause confusion. Instead, marketing departments have found that simplification, and even a bit of misleading over-simplification is more apt to sell products in high volume to the vast low information crowd than brutal honesty. The origin of this marketing behavior can be traced to the average consumer, who, is largely dispassionate about the details, and just wants it to work without having to read and comprehend a novel worth of information.

This applies to all sorts of products, from CPU's to lawn mowers, flashlights, car parts, etc.

If marketing departments placated to the consumer who actually *wants* to know the dirty details, many companies would sell less stuff, especially goods targeted at a sort of "mainstream" consumer base.

The good news is that in almost any market, there are enthusiasts who want to know and expose the dirty details. Good news is that there are a lot of respectable flashlight manufactures and/or re-sellers who send flashlights to some of those enthusiasts, who then post all the dirty details in the form of a review. This means, that if you really want to know, changes are, the answers are a google-search, or in this case, a CPF-search away.

Phlogiston said:

I don't know about the P12, but I can tell you that the Fenix PD35 has timed stepdowns to protect the light from overheating. If you set it to Turbo, it will step down to High after approximately 5 minutes. It then steps down to Medium after approximately 30 minutes.

However, this is not a marketing tactic, it's a necessary engineering compromise because the light is physically too small to dissipate that much heat. If Fenix didn't design it to step down, it would become too hot to hold, the LED would fail prematurely, or both.

You can switch the light back up to Turbo or High immediately after it steps down, if you really need lots of light for longer, but you do so at your own risk of damaging the light and/or injuring yourself on hot parts. The long runtimes quoted by Fenix roughly correspond to what you'd get if you kept switching the light back up until the battery died.

You can find Selfbuilt's review of the PD35 (with runtime graphs) here:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-2xCR123A-RCR)-Review-BEAMSHOTS-RUNTIME-VIDEO

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Hi, you are correct about the step downs. But I don't agree with the reasoning.

Heat is only part of the issue and most unlikely due to any damage that may occur on the light. It's true it might get too hot to hold comfortably. But they very fact you can force it to step up again supports the fact it isn't damaging the light.

Chicken Drumstick said:

Hi, you are correct about the step downs. But I don't agree with the reasoning.

Heat is only part of the issue and most unlikely due to any damage that may occur on the light. It's true it might get too hot to hold comfortably. But they very fact you can force it to step up again supports the fact it isn't damaging the light.

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Maximum supported operating temp during a discharge for popular li-ion cells is ~60C, or ~140F.

Forcing a light back into a maximum mode over and over again could be cause for concern in terms of battery safety.

Otherwise, yes, I would agree that with the exception of perhaps an unusual large value electrolytic capacitor selection used in an occasional boost circuit, most LED flashlights these days could handle very high temps without damage.

I find the runtime specs deceiving. When I was a flashlight "beginner" I sent my TK75 back for warranty repair (at Fenix's suggestion) because it would only stay on turbo for 2-3 minutes. I noticed some manufacturers now include info on runtime in their manuals. In very small print it says "Runtimes are accumulated."

I have to admit, I don't look at runtime as much as I used to. Things are so much better than it ever has been, I get plenty of runtime for my needs. It still consider it, but I'm finding I focus on other things more, like UI, the size of the light, etc... Runtime is almost an afterthought...




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Berneck1 said:

I have to admit, I don't look at runtime as much as I used to. Things are so much better than it ever has been, I get plenty of runtime for my needs. It still consider it, but I'm finding I focus on other things more, like UI, the size of the light, etc... Runtime is almost an afterthought...




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When I think about it, it actually tends to be the same for me. Modern leds are so efficient that runtime isn't a huge issue anymore. The PD35 mentioned by the OP is a great example of one of these hugely energy efficient modern lights, I keep mine on high and I only charge the battery every 2-3 weeks. I have never experienced the timed step down because i never run the light on high continuously for more than 30min. at a time. Most of the time i will have switched the light off and on a couple of times long before the 30min mark, but if need be you can always kick it back up to high again. I doubt that will actually harm the light, but if it feels very hot just let it cool off a few minutes before kicking it back up to high. I would be more concerned about doing this repeatedly with turbo, though.

The potential for increased runtime made possible by more efficient LEDs is more attractive to me than increased max output. Regardless of how much brighter the max output of lights have become, I still prefer to have a solid 500-600 OTF mode with flat regulation, but all the lights I'm interested in have a mode spacing of ~900-1000 and then ~200. In my opinion, that wastes a good deal of potential inside that range.