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Thread: Mag 62138 Regulated Build. Originally started as Mag623 DD.

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Mag 62138 Regulated Build. Originally started as Mag623 DD.

    Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux. Does 10.5A off topped off cells. The SMO Kai reflector works good and stock switch is heavily sprayed with deoxit plus copper tailcap spring.

    Has me wondering how much Lux a 2.5inch Throwmaster head would do???
    how much longer my switch will last

    In short, I switched to Mag 62138 because it produces a tighter hotspot and more lux, but less lumens.

    In summary of this project having 3K~4K Lumens with over 100K is amazing!!!.

    With 62138 in 4D Mag regulated at 13.5V to the bulb.

    • Tailcap current starts at 9.5~9.8A


    With the 2.5in Throwmaster bezel LUX is 217~220K


    With Kai SMO reflector for Mags LUX is 110~112K
    Last edited by bigchelis; 06-22-2015 at 11:25 AM.
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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    I guess my question is will the 2.5inch Throwmaster offer 25%~ 50% more throw?
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    Flashaholic* LumenHound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    This thread from 2008 shows the 623 reflector comparison beamshots.

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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    I guess my question is will the 2.5inch Throwmaster offer 25%~ 50% more throw?
    Here is a rough calculated estimate:
    A 2,5 inch thromaster will give you around 27% highter lux values. [ignore this, see post 11 for details] This calculation only works if all the other variables are the same i.e. same light, same bezel thickness (4mm), same reflector coating, same type of glass lens etc.

    For throw you need two things: a high surface brightness and the largest reflector diameter (the inner diameter of the large opening) you can get. Reflector depth does not have a meaningful influence on center beam lux. It only changes how the light is dispensed around the hotspot and maybe how large the spot is. The throwmaster will give you a much brighter corona compared to a normal mag reflector because it is much deeper in relation to its diameter. The outer spill will also be less wide.

    If you want noticeably more throw compared to a maglite head, you should get one of fivemegas 3-inch heads (FM3X & FM3H).
    Last edited by The_Driver; 05-03-2015 at 10:50 AM.

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Thank you all for the responses.

    I was looking for a stock 4D Mag look as much as possible hence why I figured a 2.5in throwmaster might look more undercover than a 3in from fivemega.

    I did read that the OSRAM 64633/150Watt/15V bulb would offer more throw but I got ironically 10.8A at the tailcap in this exact same hosts/lens/cells ect and the LUX was 80K lux vs. 85K lux with the Mag623 bulb.





    I have a 2D Mag with XPL regulated at 5A to the LED with 8.4V input driver. With a 2.8in SMO bezel this one gives me 240K lux which is really amazing at distance but anything less than 50feet ironically looks not so bright...lol. Hence; why I wanted to build a hotwire. I figured I can get 120~150K lux and 2000/3000 real out the front lumens while still providing a nice CRI color and useful light usage inside of 50ft and yet a ton of throw when needed. As a bonus the ability to start fires too...


    bigC
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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    The stock Mag switch has held up perfect thus far with 5 cycles of 20min per.


    I do have a FET DD Driver from Mtnelectronics on way to me. its a Single MoDE and designed for 12V plus. Why? This driver will essentially just handle the 10A of current vs. the stock Mag D switch. The driver will handle all the amps plus it runs cool, so it doesn't need to be bonded to the heatsink or anything. This $15 FET is much less expensive than buying a dedicated Mag 10A switch or going through the trouble of building a high current switch. I was told by MTNelectronics owner it would work perfect since its technically not driving anything but just holding the load. Ill post pictures and update once I get it going .

    best,
    bigC
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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    The Mag623 4D in question here will be updated this weekend with pictures and how much improvements I get from the VLOP 2.5in Throwmaster.

    Throwmaster plus eventually the FET DD single mode switch to handle the load.
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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Put the 2.5in Fivemega VLOP throwmaster and my Mag623 build now is surprisingly displaying more Lux than I anticipated.

    167.5K~172K lux with the 2.5in Throwmaster. That is a slightly over 50% more throw vs. the SMO Kai reflector.

    bigC
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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Very interesing! Can you measure the diameter of the large reflector opening for me?

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    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Driver View Post
    A 2,5 inch thromaster will give you around 27% highter lux values.
    I have no idea how you calculate this but if you believe that more reflection surface has lot of role for concentering more light in hot spot area, you will come up with much higher percentage. (Forget about other factors now.)
    Let's compare standard 2" reflector surface with 2" deep reflector. It is obvious that deep reflector has more reflective surface while front opening area is same 2".
    Now we know that 2.5" Throw Master has deep reflector (which is first factor) while has larger opening compare to 2" deep reflector (which is second factor) for increasing surface, then we will come up with much greater percentage compare to standard reflector.
    Remember that continuing parabola line to larger diameter, will increase large amount of reflective surface.
    Think of this way: calculate reflective area of standard 2" reflector, then remove (machine) certain area of reflector to make it smaller or say 1.5" diameter, then calculate the reflective area.
    Now let's compare 1" reflector to 2" reflector with same parabola, same bulb opening and same texture.
    Don't you think 2" reflector will have more than quad times of reflectivity area?


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Driver View Post
    Very interesing! Can you measure the diameter of the large reflector opening for me?
    M*g bezel had opening diameter of about 47mm and 2.5" Throw Master had bezel diameter of about 64mm
    Last edited by fivemega; 05-01-2015 at 08:19 PM.

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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    My calculation was based on the assumption that all factors remain the same and the throwmaster had an outside diameter of 2.5 inches. As you say, 2.5 inches is actually the inside diameter. This makes a big difference (a little bit more diameter increases the area of a circle significantly).

    For throw you need the surface area of the reflector as seen when looking straight at the light from the front (this is reason why the depth doesn't have much effect on center beam throw) and the luminance of the light source. From this number you need to subtract a few things like transmission losses from the lens and the reflectivity of the used reflector.

    The calculation is very accurate if the used data is accurate. We have been using it for years in the German TLF forum. Here is a very good explanation. Just use google translate since it is in German.

    Here is is my new calculation:
    We need to first calculate the luminance of the bulb, since there is no data for it.

    Surface area of standard mag reflector (what is the diameter of the bulb opening of the kaidomain reflector?):
    diameter large opening: 47.4mm
    diameter small opening: 15.3mm
    surface area: (47.4/2 * pi) - (15.3/2 * pi) = 1581mm^2

    Surface area of throwmaster reflector:
    diameter large opening: 64mm
    diameter small opening: 12.5mm
    surface area: 3094mm^2

    For comparison - surface area of FM3X 3-inch reflector:
    diameter large opening: 71.5mm
    diameter small opening: 12.5mm
    surface area: 3892mm^2


    Now the lux numbers from bigchelis make much more sense. The throwmaster should double the lux value of the light.
    I don't have more time now. I will finish the calculation later.

    EDIT:

    The formular for Throw is:
    Beam intensity [cd] = reflector surface area [mm^2] * luminance of lightsource [cd/mm^2] * reflector reflectitivity [%] * lens transmission [%]
    This is how you calculate the throw at turn-on. Led light tend to lose brightness because of heat (depends on how good the heat dissipation of the light is). This would be an additional factor for the calculation. Similarily incan lights without regulation lose brightness because the battery voltage drops continiously. Regulated incan lights should be perfectly constant.

    I will now use this to calculate the appoximate luminance of the bulb in big_chelis light:
    Luminance of bulb = 85,000cd / (1581mm^2 * 0.9 * 0.92) = 65cd/mm^2

    Now I will calculate the approximate throw this bulb will produce with the Throwmaster head using the dimensions that fivemega posted:
    Beam intensity = 3094mm^2 * 65cd/mm^2 * 0.9 * 0.92 = 166,519cd = 167kcd

    Pretty dang close to the measured numbers .

    Like I wrote before - for maximum throw the FM3X-Heads will be better, because they have an even larger diameter.
    Beam intensity = 3892mm^2 * 65cd/mm^2 * 0.9 * 0.92 = 209,467cd = 210kcd

    @fivemega: for throw only the surface area of the reflector as seen from the front actually counts. Depth does not make a big difference here. The one thing it can influence is the bulb hole diameter. Making it smaller will increase the surface area by a tiny amount. The diameter of the large reflector opening is the only thing that really makes a difference. Please remember though that I am only talking about the throw (center beam candela/lux). Not the shape of the beam or anything like that. For those types of things your deep reflectors seem to make a really big difference.
    Last edited by The_Driver; 05-04-2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    I finished my post above yesterday. Any comments?

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Driver View Post
    I finished my post above yesterday. Any comments?


    Well your math is very impressive indeed. Especially; how close/spot on it was on my set-up. I think it was possible considering for Mag Hotwire builds we all use UCL borefloat high temp lens of some sort too. So, even there that would help the math be almost perfect with real world results.


    Makes me want a 3~5inch bezel now

    My next homework is how to figure out how bulb filament or bulb size affects throw?


    Thank You,
    bigC
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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    Well your math is very impressive indeed. Especially; how close/spot on it was on my set-up. I think it was possible considering for Mag Hotwire builds we all use UCL borefloat high temp lens of some sort too. So, even there that would help the math be almost perfect with real world results.


    Makes me want a 3~5inch bezel now

    My next homework is how to figure out how bulb filament or bulb size affects throw?


    Thank You,
    bigC
    The numbers are so good because you seem to have focused the bulb nicely in both measurements and the batteries were probably at very similar voltages in both cases.

    A 5-inch reflector has around 4.5 times the surface area of your throwmaster! Candela values would rise accordingly.

    Here is a very important thread in the German TLF Forum, where member sma is collecting luminance figures of many different light sources. The values for the LEDs he measures himself with as much precision as he can. Here is a post from me in that thread where I have collected luminance figures for many different bipin bulbs. The numbers are based LuxLuthors bulb tests. sma will test a few bulbs himself in the near future to see if the numbers are accurate.

    The values I have mentioned there are at the rated voltage of each bulb. The last value is the percentage of added intensity when the bulb is overdriven to have a lifetime of around 10 hours based on LuxLuthors data.

    To get the luminance [cd/mm^2] of a lightsource you need to measure its candela [cd] (basically measure it's lux @ 1m without any reflector) and you need the size of the lightsource [mm^2].

    Generally it seems that the best bulb for maximum throw is the Osram 62138. It has by far the highest luminance of all the tested bulbs at it rated voltage (12V) and it can even be overdriven a bit further. If you replace your bulb with a 62138 you will get more throw, but a much smaller, less practical hotspot. The corona around the spot will become brighter. This is caused by the axial orientation of the filament. If you look at it from the top you will see that it is actually really small. Also keep in mind that the differences between the luminance values of the different bulbs are actually not that great.
    A de-domed Cree LED at a high current is much better for example.

    I should also mention what sma has wrote in that thread: the luminance values when overdriven, at least for the Osram 62138, should in theory not be possible. Theory says that the luminance of the filament only depends on its temperature. Tungsten melts at a fixed temperature. sma will test this bulb at some point.
    Last edited by The_Driver; 05-04-2015 at 04:43 PM.

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Thank you for the info. I have considered the Osram USL Mod but didn't know it was the best thrower of the bunch.


    I use 4 IMR Keeppower 26650's which topped off the charger are 4.2V each (16.8V input) That 62138 is said to FLASH at 15V, so not sure if my IMR cells at 9~10A of current will do or if the stock switch creates enough resistance to provide just under 15V.


    My other alternative is LifeP04 26650's. Topped off those are about 3.6V input and 4 of those would be 14.4V input and well out of the flash zone. Maybe I need to get me 4 of these and that 62138 bulb to try it out.


    Thanks,
    bigC
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    i tried most of those big bulbs, i like 64458 the best, i can take 5 cells. overdrive to almost 200w. over 10klm, however it has vertical filament, i'm not sure if it helps with throw, or hurts.
    Last edited by alpg88; 05-05-2015 at 09:21 AM.

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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    The orientation of the filament does not effect throw in any way. What it does effect is the shape of the beam. With an axial (vertical) filament you get a smaller hotspot and a bigger corona (in general, when you compare two bulbs with similar sized filaments). With standard horizontal filaments you get a bigger spot and less corona.

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    Flashaholic* maxspeeds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Driver View Post
    The orientation of the filament does not effect throw in any way. What it does effect is the shape of the beam. With an axial (vertical) filament you get a smaller hotspot and a bigger corona (in general, when you compare two bulbs with similar sized filaments). With standard horizontal filaments you get a bigger spot and less corona.
    From my experiences, the orientation of the filament effects throw quite substantially. Axial filaments are what you want if you're looking for throw. It allows the reflector to concentrate more of the lumens into the center hotspot. A smaller hotspot will have a longer throw (albiet a smaller diameter) when comparing the same filament if oriented horizontally.

    An analogy is looking at the XP-G emitter versus XM-L utilizing the same reflector and same input power. The XP-G will out throw the XM-L due to its concentration of light output in the middle of the reflector.
    Cheers from the McGizmo state.

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspeeds View Post
    From my experiences, the orientation of the filament effects throw quite substantially. Axial filaments are what you want if you're looking for throw. It allows the reflector to concentrate more of the lumens into the center hotspot. A smaller hotspot will have a longer throw (albiet a smaller diameter) when comparing the same filament if oriented horizontally.

    An analogy is looking at the XP-G emitter versus XM-L utilizing the same reflector and same input power. The XP-G will out throw the XM-L due to its concentration of light output in the middle of the reflector.

    what. Would be an example of axial G6.35 bulb?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    what. Would be an example of axial G6.35 bulb?
    64458 12v 90w

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by alpg88 View Post
    64458 12v 90w

    thanks. Just ordered 2 of them. I'll try it with 5 imr 26500's, if I get brave maybe 6 imr 26500's
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    thanks. Just ordered 2 of them. I'll try it with 5 imr 26500's, if I get brave maybe 6 imr 26500's
    6 will flash, but 5 will work just fine, I use sony 18650 high current cells I took out from Makita drill, and 10A tailswitch, on my light, i'm not sure 100% but I think stock maq switch, even thou will work, but resistance will eat up some voltage. i think you'd get better results with high current switch, http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ion-(Pic-Heavy!)

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    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspeeds View Post
    From my experiences, the orientation of the filament effects throw quite substantially. Axial filaments are what you want if you're looking for throw. It allows the reflector to concentrate more of the lumens into the center hotspot. A smaller hotspot will have a longer throw (albiet a smaller diameter) when comparing the same filament if oriented horizontally.

    An analogy is looking at the XP-G emitter versus XM-L utilizing the same reflector and same input power. The XP-G will out throw the XM-L due to its concentration of light output in the middle of the reflector.
    Actually this is not true. For throw only the luminance (= "surface brightness") of the light source in combination with a reflector/optic counts. It just so happens that the smaller XP-G has a higher luminance than the XM-L.
    A current XM-L2 in U3 oder U4 Bin probably has a higher luminance compared to the old XP-G. But it's twice as big.....

    The same principle applies to bulbs. The luminance is what matters. The orientation of the filament only has an effect on the shape of the beam.

    @bigchelis: I think you should think about getting a regulator from JimmyM. They just make sooo much sense in these kinds of lights. You can precisely regulate any voltage lower than that of your batteries.

    The 62138 is an axial bulb. Please take another look at the link I put into one of my earlier posts with the luminance values. The filament orientation of each bulb is in the list.
    transverse = horizontal
    axial = vertical

    Also please take a look at this old thread. It is a very nice collection of beamshots. You can see the difference between the beams of the 64623 and 64458 in the throwmaster reflector. You will see that the at least in his battery-bulb-combinations the 64458 actually has a lower luminance and coesspondingly less throw than the 64623 that you are already using. You can will also see that the 62138 beats both of them when it comes to luminance/throw, but the difference between it and the 64623 is actually not that great. Not when it comes to total brightness though (64623 puts out more lumens). These beamshots also show what I said earlier: 3-inch reflectors will give you even more throw than deep 2.5 inch reflectors.

    I think you can probably stay with the 64623. You wont gain much with the other bulbs except for maybe a nicer (more even) beam.
    Last edited by The_Driver; 05-06-2015 at 05:05 AM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    what you said may be true for bulbs driven at rated voltage, but when overdriven, everything changes, no other bulb you mentioned can take as much and burn as bright as 64458, and very few here run bulbs at rated voltage, no fun in that.
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...wer-Info-Added)

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    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Since, I never done a high current switch mod on a stock Maglite housing I actually have a FET DD single mode driver for this build. The FET built by Mtnelectronics for me and for the 12V plus inputs and it runs cool while absorbing all the 10A~ of current. This seems to me a lot easier, I have to assemble it today to confirm how it likes the hotwire.



    The Hotwire Driver would be ideal, I am not sure though if they are still made and sold.


    I will post some pictures and lux values later on. Pictures do help but I think a measured lux values add some more detail that even pictures sometimes cant show.


    Thank you,
    bigC
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    i'm not sure fet dd driver built by Mtnelectronics could handle 150w let alone 200w of power. overdriven 64458 pulls about 200w (20+v 10+amps).

    i actually wrote to owner of mtnelectronics asking about it, i'll let you know when i get answer.

    i actually got one few days ago, and build triple xpl wired in parallel on noctigon star, works great, but i doubt it pulls more than 3-4 amps now, i plan on getting high current cell and hopefully high current switch, i'm pretty sure at this point stock SF switch is what limits me due to resistance. i would think the driver woudl handle 8-9A at 3v, but i'd wait for answer before tryng to get 150+w thru it.

    p.s. i got an answer, he says no. amc7135 will blow up for sure, and fet most likely can not handle that much power. i also forgot to mention to him, the question was about a halogen bulb, unlike leds, its peak on start up can be 2x as much amps. so you looking at 400w+ for a short instance.
    Last edited by alpg88; 05-06-2015 at 11:35 AM.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Placed my order for these 2 bulbs and Incan Driver to conduct actual Lux test

    Osram 64458 which I will DD with 5 IMR 26650's
    Osram 62138 with 14V Incan Driver which will use 4 IMR 26650's


    What makes it more of a realistic test is if I can use the same reflector, lens, cells, switch, and just add a cell or subtract to test. Tailcap currents will be taken too.


    bigC
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    you could easy, they are same bulbs dimention wise, just unplug one and plug another. also i noticed when i install any of those monster bulbs, they smoke for about a minute or so, no matter how i clean them, they still smoke a bit. , so leave reflector off untill smoking stops, than put head back on. it only happens once when i install it, after that no smoke.
    Last edited by alpg88; 05-06-2015 at 02:51 PM.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* The_Driver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    Quote Originally Posted by alpg88 View Post
    you could easy, they are same bulbs dimention wise, just unplug one and plug another. also i noticed when i install any of those monster bulbs, they smoke for about a minute or so, no matter how i clean them, they still smoke a bit. , so leave reflector off untill smoking stops, than put head back on. it only happens once when i install it, after that no smoke.
    but he would need to adjust the Bulb voltage quite a bit. The 64458 is a 4000h bulb while the 62138 is a 50h bulb. This means the 64458 needs a much higher voltage (more "overdrive") compared to the 62138 to reach the same efficiency and color temperature.

    By the way - I blew a 62138 at ~13.7V with my regulator from Jimmy. At least if his formulas for adjusting the bulb voltage are accurate....
    I am now running it at ~13V and it has been working fine.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Mag623 with 4D Stock switch/4 imr 26650 and 85K lux

    sure he'd need adjust voltage, by removing or adding a cell, if you look at destructive tests, you'll see every bulb has a "spot" where it works without flashing with some number of cells.

    62138 flashes at 15v according to same tests, i'm not sure why you blew it at 13,7v, may be it was defective, or its lifespan was on its last minute.

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