candela

masterP

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I don't know if this is the right place to ask or if this is a dumb noob question...but why is a 500 lumen LED surefire fury rated at 9,400 candela....

and a 45 lumen incadescent 3D maglight rated at 16,280 candela.......

and a 65 lumen LED streamlight stylus pro rated at 690 candela?

does an incadescent maglite have more candela?

I thought more lumens = more candela?
 

Capolini

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One reason is they may be inaccurate specs.

Another reason More lumens does NOT always mean more candela. example: I have an OSTS TN31mb[modded light] that is ~750 lumens and has 470Kcd!! On the other hand you may have a flood monster like the TN36 which is ~6000 lumens and it only has ~ 25Kcd.

The distribution of the over all output, size of reflector, how much current boost a light may have, type of LED ect ALL help determine lumens and cd's.

I am sure others will elaborate more and give you more detailed and scientific data! :cool:


HERE IS A THREAD ON IT WITH MUCH MORE DETAIL:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Easy-to-Understand-Lumens-Vs-Lux-Explanation
 
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masterP

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ok, I can understand a more focused beam will create more candela or lux....and a floodier light will have less candela or lux.

but I hear people talking about "out the front lumens".....what other lumens are there besides out the front? and how honest are manufacturers about all these numbers they're giving us?

I watched a youtube video comparing an old surefire G2 with the P60 65 lumen incandescent bulb......to a newer 80 lumen LED surefire G2. the 80 lumen LED barely lit up a tree a far distance away yet the old incandescent bulb lit up the tree quite well.

my experience with LED lights in the past has been.....they all look blue and unnatural in color, and you couldn't see any depth with them. (I know LED has come a long way and is no longer all blue color except the dollar store type) This is what kept me from switching over to LED lights until now......I could see better with incandescent than LED and it looked natural (until the batteries started to die and everything starts to turn yellow)

and the fact that spare bulbs for incandescent lights won't be around forever, I don't want to be left behind.

reminds me when everyone had to switch from cassettes to CD's
 

TEEJ

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ok, I can understand a more focused beam will create more candela or lux....and a floodier light will have less candela or lux.

but I hear people talking about "out the front lumens".....what other lumens are there besides out the front? and how honest are manufacturers about all these numbers they're giving us?

I watched a youtube video comparing an old surefire G2 with the P60 65 lumen incandescent bulb......to a newer 80 lumen LED surefire G2. the 80 lumen LED barely lit up a tree a far distance away yet the old incandescent bulb lit up the tree quite well.

my experience with LED lights in the past has been.....they all look blue and unnatural in color, and you couldn't see any depth with them. (I know LED has come a long way and is no longer all blue color except the dollar store type) This is what kept me from switching over to LED lights until now......I could see better with incandescent than LED and it looked natural (until the batteries started to die and everything starts to turn yellow)

and the fact that spare bulbs for incandescent lights won't be around forever, I don't want to be left behind.

reminds me when everyone had to switch from cassettes to CD's

An LED makes photons (light) and the lens, reflector, etc...are what focuses it. A low transmission lens (el cheapo plastic "clear" lens for example, absorbs some of the light. A reflector with a large hole for the LED board, etc, can reflect light back into the flashlight's body. Some unfocused light spills out and hits the bezel, etc.

The LED lumens are what the LED itself is emitting. Out the Front (OTF) lumens are what is thrown at your target....IE: What's LEFT of the LED lumens by the time they get out of the flashlight.

Some makers are quite honest, but that's not the same as quite accurate. There's a body that publishes test methods for measurements, ANSI, and they have standardized the way the measurements are taken. Some companies simply say the ANSI lumens are whatever the LED chart from CREE, etc, says is the maximum output...and double or triple that if a competitor gets the same idea.

We have people in this forum who measure the output to see how close it is. For the major makers (not the major fakers), the ratings are about right.


Lux = Lumens per Square Meter.

So, if you have 1 lumen, and spread it out over a square meter...you'd have 1 lux of illumination. (You can't SEE a lumen. You can see lux, as the light that reflected back to your eyes. The brighter it looks to your eyes, the higher the lux)


Some beams are tightly focused, so the beam angle is small, and the cone of light coming out is narrow. You see a small dot of light off in the distance.

Some beams are widely focused, so a fan shaped swath of area is lit up all at once....you see every thing in front of you in one shot.


If the beam has spread, based on the distance, to a 1 square meter sized circle of light on your target, and you had 100 lux on that small target....

...with a wider beam, say 2 square meters in area on your target, you'd now have 50 lux on that larger target...with the same lumens.


So, the beam angle has an enormous impact on the size of the beam at any given distance...and, the size of the beam's spot on a target at any given distance, for a given lumen output, has an enormous impact on the resultant lux.


Otherwise, its like a bar conversation about not understanding why a motorcycle with 100 horse power is so much faster than a tractor trailer with the same 100 HP.

:D


So the LED is going to perform VERY differently depending upon what its IN. So, yes, the surefire mentioned is not a good choice if you want to light up a tree 100 meters away....but there are LED flashlights that can light up trees closer to a mile away....they're just not sold by SF for example.

There are LED with yellower tints, cool white tints, etc...and, yeah, angry blue is for the check out line specials...but, those are not state of the art shall we say.

:D
 
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masterP

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wow...that was a great explanation. thanks a million. I guess I'm kinda late in the game when it comes to all the technical terms and how everything works. I just started reading this forum about a month ago and decided to join

I have an old surefire 6Z that I was trying to get a spare P60 bulb for. I'm in Vancouver Canada and finding anything out of the ordinary is a challenge. I searched the web and it bought me to this forum. I kept reading the same name over and over again.....Malkoff

so I decided to look up his website and email him. I found out there is one single dealer in all of Canada that carries Malkoff M61 drop ins so I ordered one from all the positive reviews I read here. they only had the M61 (260 lumen for 2 hours) I guess the newest version is 325 lumens for 1.5 hours

I think it should arrive in the mail tomorrow. I'm really curious to see how bright it is, what the tint color is, the throw distance, how much flood there is.....

keep in mind the best flashlight I've had up to now has been the surefire 6Z with a P60 65 lumens, and a streamlight scorpion 80 lumens. both incandescent

this will be my first high end LED light. I've only ever seen pictures, never seen a real quality LED light in person




An LED makes photons (light) and the lens, reflector, etc...are what focuses it. A low transmission lens (el cheapo plastic "clear" lens for example, absorbs some of the light. A reflector with a large hole for the LED board, etc, can reflect light back into the flashlight's body. Some unfocused light spills out and hits the bezel, etc.

The LED lumens are what the LED itself is emitting. Out the Front (OTF) lumens are what is thrown at your target....IE: What's LEFT of the LED lumens by the time they get out of the flashlight.

Some makers are quite honest, but that's not the same as quite accurate. There's a body that publishes test methods for measurements, ANSI, and they have standardized the way the measurements are taken. Some companies simply say the ANSI lumens are whatever the LED chart from CREE, etc, says is the maximum output...and double or triple that if a competitor gets the same idea.

We have people in this forum who measure the output to see how close it is. For the major makers (not the major fakers), the ratings are about right.


Lux = Lumens per Square Meter.

So, if you have 1 lumen, and spread it out over a square meter...you'd have 1 lux of illumination. (You can't SEE a lumen. You can see lux, as the light that reflected back to your eyes. The brighter it looks to your eyes, the higher the lux)


Some beams are tightly focused, so the beam angle is small, and the cone of light coming out is narrow. You see a small dot of light off in the distance.

Some beams are widely focused, so a fan shaped swath of area is lit up all at once....you see every thing in front of you in one shot.


If the beam has spread, based on the distance, to a 1 square meter sized circle of light on your target, and you had 100 lux on that small target....

...with a wider beam, say 2 square meters in area on your target, you'd now have 50 lux on that larger target...with the same lumens.


So, the beam angle has an enormous impact on the size of the beam at any given distance...and, the size of the beam's spot on a target at any given distance, for a given lumen output, has an enormous impact on the resultant lux.


Otherwise, its like a bar conversation about not understanding why a motorcycle with 100 horse power is so much faster than a tractor trailer with the same 100 HP.

:D


So the LED is going to perform VERY differently depending upon what its IN. So, yes, the surefire mentioned is not a good choice if you want to light up a tree 100 meters away....but there are LED flashlights that can light up trees closer to a mile away....they're just not sold by SF for example.

There are LED with yellower tints, cool white tints, etc...and, yeah, angry blue is for the check out line specials...but, those are not state of the art shall we say.

:D
 

cerbie

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Feb 28, 2006
Messages
556
I have an old surefire 6Z that I was trying to get a spare P60 bulb for. I'm in Vancouver Canada and finding anything out of the ordinary is a challenge. I searched the web and it bought me to this forum. I kept reading the same name over and over again.....Malkoff
I have nothing against good value dropins of other makes, and for what they are, rather like the Sportac and EDC+ ones. But, there's good reason you keep reading that :). While very simple, and just a bulb replacement, as you compare to other whole flashlights, you will find that quite a lot of careful engineering went into them.

I think it should arrive in the mail tomorrow. I'm really curious to see how bright it is, what the tint color is, the throw distance, how much flood there is.....

keep in mind the best flashlight I've had up to now has been the surefire 6Z with a P60 65 lumens, and a streamlight scorpion 80 lumens. both incandescent
It's not just the output, though that will be high. You'll have a beam with a moderately wide, soft, spot, similar to the incan P60, with much more spill, that gradually gets brighter towards the spot. It may throw OK in absolute distance, just by virtue of so much light output, but will not be thrower. After that 1.5 hours is up, it will drop out of regulation, and give you another couple hours, depending on CR123 health, of usable, diminishing, output, much like the incan P61 gives you 15-20 minutes of, once it starts substantially dimming (that long practical runtime is also one of the reasons the lower output models have such a following around these parts).

Given that there is no spring, you might have to bridge the contacts between the dropin housing and flashlight body (I'm not sure, if you have the old pop-in lexan lens type bezel, but if so, a trip to the hardware store will take care of it). Thick solid copper wire, or a copper washer or two, should do the trick, if your bezel is one of those that needs it. Once it's all clamped down, none of it will be going anywhere.

While not in Canada, Illumination Supply (illumn.com) has a lot of Malkoff products available (including some exclusive emitter options), and last I knew, would ship to Canada.
 

Echo63

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Apr 26, 2004
Messages
1,777
Location
Perth - West Australia
Lumens and Candela are two different things, that are a little bit related.
Lumens measures all the light coming out of the front of the flashlight, every last little drop of light.
Candela is a measure of peak beam intensity, how bright the brightest spot of the beam is.

looking at your numbers below, we can see the maglite has a low OTF output, but a very bright spot - the end result is a very tight, throwy beam.
the 65 lumen stylus has a nice wide floody beam, and the surefire, an in-between type of beam, a wide beam that pushes out a fair way, just because of the power behind it.



and a 45 lumen incadescent 3D maglight rated at 16,280 candela.......

and a 65 lumen LED streamlight stylus pro rated at 690 candela?

does an incadescent maglite have more candela?

I thought more lumens = more candela?
 

maglite mike

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Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
330
It's why a 3rd Gen 625 lumen maglite looks brighter then some of the 4000 lumen Chinese made light at 100 yds. Don't get too caught up in the lumens. Lumens doesn't always mean that much in real world situations. Candela relates more to throw. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'm not quite a flashaholic (yet)
 
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