very scary stuff

raggie33

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they just talked about 3 mile island on history chanel,scares me kinda they say it could of been way worst.was very intersting to watch im sure they will replay it its a worth while show to watch
 

BlindedByTheLite

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that reminds me how big of an *** Sylvia Rambo is..

but that is scary to think of tho.. i feel better knowing some CPF'ers are working at the plants now. i feel safer, *lol*
 

Avix

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how many people died/from at 3 mile island?

none.

how many could have died? lots.

the safety stuff worked.. try telling that to people.. when California had thier power "troubles" this last year, I was reminded of some power company guy back in the 70's saying to the anti nuke people something along the lines of "in 20 year when we run out of power what are you going to do then?"

how many people die every year at power plants around the country? more people get killed there than have ever been killed in North American Nuke Power Plants.
 

BlindedByTheLite

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actually.. there's quite a list of ppl who died of various cancers from 3 Mile Island..

however Judge Sylvia Rambo ruled against them, deciding the many ppl's various cancers had nothing to do with the radiation..
 

Avix

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still waiting to see the proof, anecdotes aren't evidence.
 

Avix

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been through this ourselves (wife is a downwinder). it can't be proven. it can't be disproven. if it was really provable then there would be hoards of lawyers refileing all sorts of cases. if they could "prove" the tobaco cases, they could certanly "prove" deaths from the effects of 3 Mile Island.

still waiting to see "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence.
then I will accept it.
 

raggie33

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the dang reactor was loseing cooling water due to a faughty valve then they shut off the water to the reactor this is acording to the program i watched. do you know what happens if that would of contined?not a good thing
 

BlindedByTheLite

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[ QUOTE ]
Avix said:
been through this ourselves (wife is a downwinder). it can't be proven. it can't be disproven. if it was really provable then there would be hoards of lawyers refileing all sorts of cases. if they could "prove" the tobaco cases, they could certanly "prove" deaths from the effects of 3 Mile Island.

still waiting to see "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence.
then I will accept it.



[/ QUOTE ]
yeah you're right.. something like that wouldn't show to be evident tho..
gotta feel sorry for all those ppl who developed random cancers @ around the same time tho. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

James S

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Interestingly enough, there was a 20 year followup study done a year ago this past november in 2002.

20 years covers the incubation period of the cancers that they know are caused by radiation, like the ones seen so heavily at Chernobyl, and the consensus is that what was released caused no problems. There was a "small rise" in the number of lymphatic and blood cancers in Women. But not anything that would be statistically significant enough to blame on the event. There have been lots of cases of people trying to find cancer "clusters" and blame them on specific things. There have been only a hand full of cases where it was really connected to anything though, otherwise thats just how random distributions work.

The first article that came up about this study when I googled for details for you (it's been a year since I've read anything on it) was from the BBC and even they couldn't spin the PR to make it look very bad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2385551.stm

Thats not to diminish the impact of a horrible, and horribly STUPID accident. But if the cancer and motality rates among residents were going to balloon, we'd see it by now. If for no other reason than the personal injury lawyers are all over this study and if there was anything they could bring to court, they would do so.
 

jayflash

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If this nation would reduce, reuse, recycle and develop alternate energy sources then we wouldn't need as many power plants of any type. We are inefficient because the cost is still acceptable and the energy corporations and polititians have convinced too many of us that no problem exists. We are, however, deficit spending our children's environment.
 

KC2IXE

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[ QUOTE ]
raggie33 said:
...snip... do you know what happens if that would of contined?not a good thing

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost exactly what DID happen. Know anyone in the industry? I knew a few guys who worked in a related field. What few people realize is that the core failure was MUCH worse than the public was originally told. It's in the open docs from the cleanup. The core DID melt down - 90% or so of the core melted, and ended up on the bottom of the reactor. The thing is, the 1st stage of the containment WORKED, and it did NOT melt through

BTW another "factoid" that most people don't realize. The containment building is the size/shape it is because they KNOW that if they DO melt through the bottom, 2 things will happen

1)You WILL get a steam preasure spike - remember, the core MAY eventually hit ground water - yes, they thought of the "China Syndrome" before the movie - but.....

2)The china syndrome won't really happen! Huh? IF the core is hot enough to melt concrete/rock (we are assuming it is here) a large portion of the core material will be evaporating off the core (yes, molten metals evaporate) - the vapor pressure will be such the the metal deposits on the walls of the contaiment building. The buildings interiaor surface area is designed that if you take the core, and deposit it on the building this way, the concentraions are sub critical, and the reaction STOPS. The temp that rock melts/burns is significantly higher than the evaporation temp of the metal. Aka, the metal will evaporate till the point the meltdown stops, and it won't tunnel far
 

Avix

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a lot of people (media included) confuse 3 Mile Island and the movie "The China Syndrome". The basic fact here is, there was an accident at 3 Mile Island and the emergency messures and protocols worked. the design and operation protocols were thought out and didn't go boom or make people glow or any things like that. there was an incredible amount of Disinformation going around about anything Nuke related around then. bombs and power plants mostly. (anyone remember Dr. Helen Caldicot and "If you Love this Planet"?)

hype and hysteria seem to rule when ever the media bring up the work Nuclear.

and how is Turkey Point run? thats the one down the south end of Florida isin't it?
 

raggie33

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this is from the fpl website.and yeah its south of miami in fla if i recall i fished near it. but it may of been another power plant that was a long long time ago
About nine-tenths of the Turkey Point property remains in its natural state of mangroves and fresh water wetlands. There are more than 60 known species of birds and animals that inhabit the property. Of these, 17 are endangered.

The endangered American crocodile enjoys a favorable habitat in the plant cooling canal system. We protect the crocodile and conduct research by counting crocodile nests annually to record population changes. More than 3,000 crocodiles have been marked and released, and FPL is committed to continuing protection of the species while encouraging ongoing public education. This program and the plant's unique habitat for crocodiles has attracted national attention by CNN Headline News, Disney and National Geographic.

FPL is also involved in the Florida Everglades Mitigation Bank. We are returning nearly 13,500 acres of wetlands to their natural, historical condition. We preserve this area to best serve Florida citizens and our own company goals because of the site's ecological value.
 

BB

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Maybe this is why it was so hard for the plaintiffs to demonstrate that TMI was a significant source of radiation, from our friends at Oak Ridge:
[ QUOTE ]
The population effective dose equivalent from coal [fired power] plants is 100 times that from [properly operating] nuclear plants.
...
For 1982 the total release of radioactivity from 154 typical coal plants in the United States was, therefore, 2,630,230 millicuries [2,600 curies].

[/ QUOTE ]
Doing some further reading, TMI released SYLVIA H. RAMBO ruling:...approximately 2.5 million curies of radioactive noble gases and 15 curies of radioiodines were released...

I was very surprised to see that 2.5 million curies of noble gases were released. However, it seems, from my limited reading tonight, that people should be more concerned with the radioioiodine releases--~15 curies in this case. Noble gases are not biologically active, whereas iodine is...

To put this in proper relationships to what happened at Chernobyl-- Green Peace: ...It has been estimated that, although different radionuclides were released, the total radioactivity of the material from Chernobyl was 200 times that of the combined releases from the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, there is still ongoing discussion about the quantity of radioactive material released in 1986. Many of the official estimates at the time claimed that 50 million curies (excluding noble gases) were released. However, in 1995, the Committee on the Safety of Nuclear Installations from the Nuclear Energy Agency released the results of further research on the source term which shows that, the release was about 140 million cures, three times the original estimate.

So, it would appear that the Chernobyl release was on the order of 1-10 million times more (in non-noble gases) than TMI.

From the 1996 lawsuit, there were estimates (by our government) of approximately 1 "extra cancer or related" death due to radiation exposure. Chernobyl was estimated to cause 100,000 to 1,000,000 "extra cancer or related deaths" over time.

The problem is that any technology has pluses and minuses... But, sooner or later, nuclear will have to be explored in the US (~79% of France's electricity comes from nuclear plants, US is ~15%, US power from coal is currently around 50%). Oil/Coal will eventually become uneconomical, and Solar/Wind have significant issues (costs, amount of material required to build, impact on the environment from such massive installations, etc.).

I do agree that conservation is a very good start... But it will not be enough. And even this has problems... You know those very efficient florescent, CFL, and CCFL lights? They have mercury in them. Their disposal is moving them up to where, in a few decades or so, they will exceed the number 1 mercury pollution source--coal fired power plants!

-Bill
 

LED-FX

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[ QUOTE ]
sooner or later, nuclear will have to be explored in the US

[/ QUOTE ]

In the UK, Nuclear power is regarded as a sunset industry reaching the end of its life.

[ QUOTE ]
US power from coal is currently around 50%

[/ QUOTE ]

Think the whgole world is uncomfortably aware of the US contribution to greehouse gases.

[ QUOTE ]
Oil/Coal will eventually become uneconomical, and Solar/Wind have significant issues (costs, amount of material required to build, impact on the environment from such massive installations, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

I am afraid you have failed to address my earlier point about the true costs of nuclear power.

Power stations have a limited life span of perhaps maximum of 40 years. A nuclear power station is enormously expensive to build and there has yet to be any completey decomissoned.

To put it in perspective the experimental reactor at Dounreay in the north of Scotalnd is anticipated to take between 50 and 100 years to demolish completely.

The waste generated will remain hazardous for 10,000 years.

Adam
 

BB

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[ QUOTE ]
In the UK, Nuclear power is regarded as a sunset industry reaching the end of its life.

[/ QUOTE ]

The UK still is running about 25% of their electrical power from nuclear. The German decision to give up all nuclear energy sources by 2030 is a triumph for fossil fuel exporting countries. These essentially are the Islamic oil powers and Russia, as America tries to preserve its own reserves.

[ QUOTE ]
Think the whgole world is uncomfortably aware of the US contribution to greehouse gases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Under clear sky, roughly 60-70 % of the natural greenhouse effect is due to water vapor, which is the dominant greenhouse gas in earth's atmosphere.


[ QUOTE ]
I am afraid you have failed to address my earlier point about the true costs of nuclear power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't disagree that disposing of nuclear waste is going to be an expensive, long term solution--But I did address the question in the Oak Ridge link:

Using these data, the releases of radioactive materials per typical plant can be calculated for any year. For the year 1982, assuming coal contains uranium and thorium concentrations of 1.3 ppm and 3.2 ppm, respectively, each typical plant released 5.2 tons of uranium (containing 74 pounds of uranium-235) and 12.8 tons of thorium that year. Total U.S. releases in 1982 (from 154 typical plants) amounted to 801 tons of uranium (containing 11,371 pounds of uranium-235) and 1971 tons of thorium. These figures account for only 74% of releases from combustion of coal from all sources. Releases in 1982 from worldwide combustion of 2800 million tons of coal totaled 3640 tons of uranium (containing 51,700 pounds of uranium-235) and 8960 tons of thorium.

All I was saying was that there are many sources of radioactive emissions and that while people focus on one source (nuclear power plants) there are other sources that need to be reviewed too. Disposing of ash and fly-ash from coal powered power plants has continued to be a big problem (regarding just the "normal" products of coal combustion) and people need to be concerned about radioactive disposal for other forms of power generation too.

[ QUOTE ]
Power stations have a limited life span of perhaps maximum of 40 years. A nuclear power station is enormously expensive to build and there has yet to be any completely decommissioned.

To put it in perspective the experimental reactor at Dounreay in the north of Scotalnd is anticipated to take between 50 and 100 years to demolish completely.

The waste generated will remain hazardous for 10,000 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at Dounreay, it seems that the UK government did what pretty much all governments did during early nuclear research when disposing of waste:

At Dounreay, in the north of Scotland, for over 20 years, nuclear waste and scrap from the experimental reactor and reprocessing plants were simply tipped down a disused shaft. No proper records of what was dumped were kept and eventually, in 1977 there was an explosion that showered the area with radioactive debris. In April 1998 it was finally announced that excavation and safe removal of the debris would cost £355 million

Again, not denying the problem--but to look at the amount of nuclear waste of coal vs nuclear:

[ QUOTE ]
How does the amount of nuclear material released by coal combustion compare to the amount consumed as fuel by the U.S. nuclear power industry? According to 1982 figures, 111 American nuclear plants consumed about 540 tons of nuclear fuel, generating almost 1.1 x 10E12 kWh of electricity. During the same year, about 801 tons of uranium alone were released from American coal-fired plants. Add 1971 tons of thorium, and the release of nuclear components from coal combustion far exceeds the entire U.S. consumption of nuclear fuels. The same conclusion applies for worldwide nuclear fuel and coal combustion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even solar and wind generation equipment has a limited life of 20-30 years. That is a huge amount of materials that will need to be recycled/rebuilt. And there is the need for off-line storage or alternate power sources. Solar only works on sunny days, wind only works when there is wind. Even hydroelectric power is now seen as a very environmentally damaging option... Plus, have you ever heard of anyone that has dredged the sediment of these large lakes that are created with hydro?

I still believe that never needing the power in the first place (energy efficiency, energy conservation, etc.) is also going to be important.

However, one cannot just overlook the technology we have today in nuclear power (with, politically in-correct technology, breeder reactors) there is a virtually unlimited source of energy--or, at least enough, energy until fusion power can become commercially viable (if that does ever happen).

What would you *do* regarding power in the earth now and for the near future?

While the US is certainly, today, burning the candle at both ends regarding energy use..., there are several billion people out there that would also like some chance at an improved life style too. If we make the wrong choices, many may die. And remember, that no matter what you or I may do, other countries (such as China, India, etc.) may choose to make other decisions that they believe are best for them (China seems to be going towards coal for a near-term solution and nuclear for longer term--and they have over a billion people to worry about).

There is a very interesting "new" source of natural gas (relatively clean burning). Methane Hydrate is found in the deep ocean...

Worldwide resources, however, are massive at an estimated 25,000 trillion cubic meters (875,000 trillion cubic feet), according to current estimates. That contains about twice the carbonized energy as the earth's coal, oil and gas resources combined.

-Bill
Added *missing word* and fixed typo
 
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