Interesting runtime graph from TM16 cooled vs. uncooled

thburns · Sep 15, 2015

Hi all,

I just did a runtime test for my TM16 with and without fan cooling:

This seems a little odd to me, as the output with cooling looks like it was just on direct drive the whole time. Is this normal for the ATR?

Edit, here is the same set of tests with an MH20:

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Nice test and idea behind it.
I'm thinking that Nitecore an it's ATR are allowing their lights to pull harder and longer myself too, I don't have that light. But the one I mention is the MH20.
It's killing Hi capacity batteries faster then other lights of mine in similar output class.
I'm a nobody noob, but finding outputs roughly doubled when used in cool environment up to turbo then it's just a boosted a bit.
But if warm, it's seems, to last longer on all levels, no proof really, just in recharge times I've felt that.

I'm cautious to try a lmr in a endurance test cooled environment myself right now lol.

thburns · Sep 15, 2015

I'll perform the same test with my MH20 and see if it yields similar results!

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Book marked.

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Well, strange as it is, I just ran a test with mine now.
Full charged cell this morning at 6am 4.22, it's 3.6 volts now,10am.
Never used turbo, high for maybe ten minutes.
Cell is relatively new, Olight 3200.
Test environment, my garage /shop, outside temp is 4c, interior is 10c.
Cell is done.
No run time graphs or charts, I don't know how to use excell etc.
Just by seat of pants and some loose data.
Maybe it's just this light as no one else other then Budda has mentioned high drain rates that I'm aware of.

akhyar · Sep 15, 2015

Thanks for doing the test.
Never had the chance to blast the Turbo mode on my TM16 until it dropped to High

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

If I'm screwing up your thread sir, I can delete this stuff.

I finished charging another new'ish Olight 3200 cell and am running it in MH20 on high output not turbo in same cool environment with a fan blowing in it too.
Started 10:15.

Body is cold to touch.
This should deplete this cell faster then other cell can be charged at 1a lol.

thburns · Sep 15, 2015

WarRaven said:
If I'm screwing up your thread sir, I can delete this stuff.

I finished charging another new'ish Olight 3200 cell and am running it in MH20 on high output not turbo in same cool environment with a fan blowing in it too.
Started 10:15.

Body is cold to touch.
This should deplete this cell faster then other cell can be charged at 1a lol.

No worries at all

I'm waiting on the batteries for my light meter to charge up and then I'm going to start testing my MH20. It's too bad my light meter can't record data from the thermocouple input at the same as the light sensor.

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Sweet sweet sweet!
Did you read my post here..https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/4735802/

I'm noob at this but I did get semi consistent results with other lights,
just not this one, it read higher right up to turbo.
So your findings are gonna sink my thoughts or get this into open, either way perfect and thank you.

hiuintahs · Sep 15, 2015

thburns said:
Hi all,

I just did a runtime test for my TM16 with and without fan cooling.........
This seems a little odd to me, as the output with cooling looks like it was just on direct drive the whole time. Is this normal for the ATR?

I'll make a guess here.
The difference between the two tests is temperature. So there is evidently a temperature feedback signal to the driver. Without cooling, it looks as though it hits a limit and steps down and then stays locked in this position. That looks to be a software decision built into the driver.

The fact that the cooling test just gradually slopes down tells me that it hasn't hit the max temperature threshold, and is following the battery voltage down. In order to get any type of regulation on a turbo mode (on any light), the output needs to be less than the capability of the battery in use. I'm not familiar with the TM16 but it looks as though you might be right as far as direct drive goes as they are pushing for max lumens......thus no regulation.

I saw a definte difference in the run time graph of an Armytek Viking V3 too. It was a little different than the TM16 and it depends on what the manufacturer has decided to do with that temperature information. With the Viking it would step down and then cool a little and then go back up. It would do this repeatedly. But if I ran a fan on it, then it wouldn't step down. Also if I held the light in my hand such that my body was pulling some of the heat out, it also changed the timing of the step downs.

badtziscool · Sep 15, 2015

Nice results! I wonder if it's kicking down after a predetermined amount of time or when it hits a temperature threshold. I wonder that because after such a long time of running at on 50% you would think it had a chance to cool down below a threshold. Or it could be that 50% is enough to maintain the temperature. It's also curious that both with cooling and without that a change in behavior occurs at the same time. Right around the 9 minute mark, it kicks down to 50% and it starts to do the incremental step down.

It would be interesting to run this test again without cooling but somewhere when the driver kicks down, you turn off and then turn back on the light to see if it resets. And maybe even run the test without cooling until it steps down and then turn the fan on to see what happens.

thburns · Sep 15, 2015

hiuintahs said:
I'll make a guess here.
The difference between the two tests is temperature. So there is evidently a temperature feedback signal to the driver. Without cooling, it looks as though it hits a limit and steps down and then stays locked in this position. That looks to be a software decision built into the driver.

The fact that the cooling test just gradually slopes down tells me that it hasn't hit the max temperature threshold, and is following the battery voltage down. In order to get any type of regulation on a turbo mode (on any light), the output needs to be less than the capability of the battery in use. I'm not familiar with the TM16 but it looks as though you might be right as far as direct drive goes as they are pushing for max lumens......thus no regulation.

I saw a definte difference in the run time graph of an Armytek Viking V3 too. It was a little different than the TM16 and it depends on what the manufacturer has decided to do with that temperature information. With the Viking it would step down and then cool a little and then go back up. It would do this repeatedly. But if I ran a fan on it, then it wouldn't step down. Also if I held the light in my hand such that my body was pulling some of the heat out, it also changed the timing of the step downs.

I definitely think that there is a max temperature threshold on turbo that causes turbo to kick down to 50% and stay there. I wish I had been watching my meter during that time so that I could have seen what the temperature was when it dropped. Also too bad my meter can't data log both at the same time (it has a temperature sensor input for some reason but I can only log light or temperature data and not both at the same time). What you said about direct drive makes a little more sense to me now!

badtziscool said:
Nice results! I wonder if it's kicking down after a predetermined amount of time or when it hits a temperature threshold. I wonder that because after such a long time of running at on 50% you would think it had a chance to cool down below a threshold. Or it could be that 50% is enough to maintain the temperature. It's also curious that both with cooling and without that a change in behavior occurs at the same time. Right around the 9 minute mark, it kicks down to 50% and it starts to do the incremental step down.

It would be interesting to run this test again without cooling but somewhere when the driver kicks down, you turn off and then turn back on the light to see if it resets. And maybe even run the test without cooling until it steps down and then turn the fan on to see what happens.

If I get some time to sit with it I'll definitely try to do an accumulated runtime test without cooling.

chuckhov · Sep 15, 2015

It really looks to me that this is a timed step down for the reasons given above. ^^^

Zebralight has a temp controlled step down, and if it steps down without a fan, when you apply a fan it will come back up.

I guess that with further testing we will see - I don't have a TM16.

Thanks,
-Chuck

thburns · Sep 15, 2015

WarRaven said:
Book marked.

So the MH20 is rated at 2h with a 2600 mAh Nitecore battery. I just started it on a 3400 mAh Keeppower. Check back in a few hours and I should have a graph up of cooled vs uncooled for the MH20 for ya!

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

I don't think mine it is going to make it to the two hour mark being run on high, cooled by fan. (Not turbo, the supposed 410 level)

I bet cell cuts out soon, can't see much difference in output yet, it's still competitive to S30RII on turbo against a wall.

I'll check cell at 2:05 if it makes it.☺

Edit, again thank you, I totally ruined course of your thread and have only red neck measures to quantify my thoughts compared to the gurus that exist here. ,+100

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

I let it go until 2:15 on high.
Voltage after resting a moment or two is 3.3v
From 4.22v, on a fresh charged 3200 mah Olight.
If reinserted into light, only second lowest level of 50 can be reached.

It seems harsh, just usage on high,
two hours and fifteen minutes to a near depleted cell.
I never engaged turbo.

Ansi is till %10, and NC listed using a 2600 cell IIRC, lasting to 2:45?
My 3200 was close to exhausted I'd say at 2:15.
I'm thinking that works out to a steady/average 1.62ish amps.
What is rated output on xm l2 u2 at 1.6?

New edit, looked up spec, Is this light actually putting out 650-700 on high?
Omg last edit, no way on this green earth an I going to try a full out turbo test in cold weather with a lmr lol, someone else can verify the dylithium doesn't crack.

Parrot Quack · Sep 15, 2015

It's cool that you guys are willing to do run time tests. I used my light last night to light my way.

The point has to do with using the darn thing. Every once in a while, I pull the battery/batteries out of the flashlight and charge them, to be used again. The point, I have no idea how long the 3400 mAh batteries are good for.

(I sure hope I don't get my flashlight card pulled)

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Parrot Quack said:
I used my light last night to light my way. [emoji14]

The point has to do with using the darn thing. Every once in a while, I pull the battery/batteries out and charge them, to be used again. The point, I have no idea how long the 3400 mAh batteries are good for.

(I sure hope I don't get my flashlight card pulled)

Do you realize just how hard it is to see in the dark when you've got your light on?
☺
Depending on what Mr.Burns tests come up with I think these ATR lights are pushing more then being given credit for.
👍

Parrot Quack · Sep 15, 2015

WarRaven said:
Do you realize just how hard it is to see in the dark when you've got your light on?
☺

Nope. Sorry. I'm clueless. That's why I like the Nitecore HC90 for night walks so much and for backup, I keep an EC4 in my back pocket.

So what you're suggesting, the manufactures are lying about their lights and the lights are pushing more than they've been spec'd for?

WarRaven · Sep 15, 2015

Yes basically sir. Edit to add, under rating let's say.
At least that's the feeling I'm getting about MH20.
Also some very noob lux testing.
I don't have a TM sadly, no experience there so I am only speculating that the MH20.
I distorted poor Mr.Burns thread thinking that ATR was giving us more in cold temps, though I'm not sure there at all with the TM16.
My reasoning might be out at lunch still
I know, but thought same OEM, same tech, birds of a feather.

Interesting runtime graph from TM16 cooled vs. uncooled

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