Heat Management

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
As light outputs keep going up and size keeps going down at some point better thermal management is going to be needed. Some of the modded lights only get a few minutes of runtime on their highest setting. I've searched but haven't found much of what is being done to help with thermal management. At the cutting edge, I would think active cooling would be on the horizon. I asked one well known modder and he told me active cooling and waterproofing don't mix yet. Are any manufacturers working on this? Any other ways for managing heat? I thought I saw a post where a member had a light that had a modded computer liquid cooling system in the light but it didn't go into much detail. Are there any other lights out there like this? I just see a light small enough for a belt holster that puts out 14k lumens but only for about 3 minutes and can't help but think if some kind of thermal management would increase it to say 20 minutes would make the light so much more usable.
 

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
I've searched but haven't found much of what is being done to help with thermal management.

Can't believe no replies yet. Let's get this heat party started.

Laser cooling:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_cooling
All laser cooling techniques rely on the fact that when an object (usually an atom) absorbs and re-emits a photon (a particle of light) its momentum changes. The temperature of an ensemble of particles is larger for larger variance in the velocity distribution of the particles. Laser cooling techniques combine atomic spectroscopy with the aforementioned mechanical effect of light to compress the velocity distribution of an ensemble of particles, thereby cooling the particles.
A massive spread of science has opened up in the past few years concerning shining a laser on a substance that makes it cooler. Nothing's free, this puts the heat in the laser and not the thing being lased.

Thermoelectric Active cooling:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling
Thermoelectric cooling uses the Peltier effect to create a heat flux between the junction of two different types of materials. A Peltier cooler, heater, or thermoelectric heat pump is a solid-state active heat pump which transfers heat from one side of the device to the other, with consumption of electrical energy, depending on the direction of the current. Such an instrument is also called a Peltier device, Peltier heat pump, solid state refrigerator, or thermoelectric cooler (TEC). It can be used either for heating or for cooling,[1] although in practice the main application is cooling. It can also be used as a temperature controller that either heats or cools.[2]

Heat pipe cooling:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe
A heat pipe is a heat-transfer device that combines the principles of both thermal conductivity and phase transition to efficiently manage the transfer of heat between two solid interfaces.

At the hot interface of a heat pipe a liquid in contact with a thermally conductive solid surface turns into a vapor by absorbing heat from that surface. The vapor then travels along the heat pipe to the cold interface and condenses back into a liquid - releasing the latent heat. The liquid then returns to the hot interface through either capillary action, centrifugal force, or gravity, and the cycle repeats. Due to the very high heat transfer coefficients for boiling and condensation, heat pipes are highly effective thermal conductors. The effective thermal conductivity varies with heat pipe length, and can approach 100 kW/(m⋅K) for long heat pipes, in comparison with approximately 0.4 kW/(m⋅K) for copper.
At the cutting edge, I would think active cooling would be on the horizon.
Heh. The tech is there, just seems like nobody is using it ATM, AFAIK. With these techniques, it'll move the heat but you still have to sink it somehow once it gets there.

I asked one well known modder and he told me active cooling and waterproofing don't mix yet.
People said that about liquid cooling a PC as well. All of the PC overclocking tricks apply, use 'em!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Piezoelectric_pump
A "dual piezo cooling jet", patented by GE, uses vibrations to pump air through the device. The initial device is three millimeters thick and consists of two nickel discs that are connected on either side to a sliver of piezoelectric ceramics. An alternating current passed through the ceramic component causes it to expand and contract at up to 150 times per second so that the nickel discs act like a bellows. Contracted, the edges of the discs are pushed together and suck in hot air. Expanding brings the nickel discs together, expelling the air at high velocity.

The device has no bearings and does not require a motor. It is thinner and consumes less energy than typical fans. The jet can move the same amount of air as a cooling fan twice its size while consuming half as much electricity and at lower cost.[6]
Oh, look at that. A fan with no real moving parts. How cool is that?

Are any manufacturers working on this?
Yeah! *YOU* if you're interested. Liquid cooling kits here:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:pc liquid cooling kits
http://www.xs-pc.com/watercooling-kits/
http://www.xoxide.com/watcoolkit.html

Any other ways for managing heat?
Of course. You could just dunk it it a clear bucket of chilled baby oil and run it from there. We don't actually need a kit. CPFer Capolini did basically this trick with a snowbank one evening, bypassing a temperature sensor stepdown. The light did not step down.

Also, if you merely bonded a computer heat sink with fins to the head of the light, perhaps machining a flat spot and bonded the heat sink with something like Arctic Silver thermal epoxy, then this would accomplish two things:
1. Increase of thermal mass, extending possible runtime before stepdown.
2. Massive increase of surface area to dissapate that heat.
It wouldn't even have to be a big heat sink, this would massively help even without a fan and nothing's stopping you from adding one.

2 lions in series provides enough voltage to spin a computer 12v fan. They don't actually need a full 12v.

From my past of messing with computers, I discovered that a smooth heat sink is NOT what you want. The rougher the texture you can give the flashlight, you can almost double the surface area presented to the outside air. The more fins on the flashlight, the more surface area.

As a mechanic, I was amused to hear from a vehicle marque that polishing the engine voided the warranty as it cut the surface area for heat dissapation in half.

In short if you want better heat management, you don't necessarily have to get radical and crazy. A very rough textured flashlight is what you want, preferrably with a lot of cooling fins. A bead blast finish would be superior to the polished finish we typically see. The more knurling, the more surface area particularly when combined with bead blast. Also, the more thermal mass you add will extend the time before you should step it down.

:)
 
Last edited:

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Kapow!!!! :cool: Done editing. Time for a beer. :naughty:
 
Last edited:

Kestrel

Flashaholic
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
7,372
Location
Willamette Valley, OR
I found that the best way to avoid the thermal limiter on the OR/Torchlab V.4 XPG Triple was to take the flashlight on a walk in below-freezing temperatures. Could be a challenging solution in some regions though. :p
 

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
I found that the best way to avoid the thermal limiter on the OR/Torchlab V.4 XPG Triple was to take the flashlight on a walk in below-freezing temperatures. Could be a challenging solution in some regions though. :p

I live in Maryland and the warmer months are hot. With Fall almost here and Winter around the corner I want to do some run times to see how much ambient temperature affects some lights. I suspect it makes a difference.
 

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Last edited:

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
The LD50VN Fiat Lux edition I got from him has additional thermal mass.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...er-anodizing-stripped-175-No-Longer-Available

Those copper plates have excellent thermal properties. Something like that but with groves, fins, or fingers can only help in heat management.

Do you have any pictures. The link to panjo says the item is no longer available. I'm curious to see what it looks like. I get every option Vinh offers to manage heat. I learned the hard way as the first two lights I got from him didn't have the copper heat sink. Its well worth it I've learned.
 

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Do you have any pictures. The link to panjo says the item is no longer available. I'm curious to see what it looks like. I get every option Vinh offers to manage heat. I learned the hard way as the first two lights I got from him didn't have the copper heat sink. Its well worth it I've learned.
Scroll down in that link, there is a picture.

The LD50vn Fiat Lux has a copper sink plate on each flat of the head. Mine has V54 Fiat Lux on one side and "More Vampires" on the other. I will never sell it, ever.

Also: Vinh putting bonded copper plates in a pill.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?407539-TOOLvn-Best-IMR10440-Clicky-of-2015
 
Last edited:

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
Scroll down in that link, there is a picture.

The LD50vn Fiat Lux has a copper sink plate on each flat of the head. Mine has V54 Fiat Lux on one side and "More Vampires" on the other. I will never sell it, ever.

Also: Vinh putting bonded copper plates in a pill.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?407539-TOOLvn-Best-IMR10440-Clicky-of-2015

Gotcha. I totally missed it. I'm on tapatalk and it doesn't always fully load posts. Thanks.
Does the copper plate get hot? It allow more runtime in your opinion.
 

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Warm, but not hot. I don't use it for long periods. I like throwing that warm dedome tight spot for long distance white wall hunting.

I agree with Vinh, that light didn't have enough mass for the current boost without them. Besides, it looks sexy.

I don't think I've ever used it "for real" past playing with it and demonstrating it. A non-flashy guy commented that it was beautiful.
 
Last edited:

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
Warm, but not hot. I don't use it for long periods. I like throwing that warm dedome tight spot for long distance white wall hunting.

I agree with Vinh, that light didn't have enough mass for the current boost without them. Besides, it looks sexy.

I don't think I've ever used it "for real" past playing with it and demonstrating it. A non-flashy guy commented that it was beautiful.

Very cool. I also like it's personalized.
 

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
Anybody have any pictures or links to lights using active cooling of some form?
 

drmaxx

Enlightened
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
546
Location
Home of chocolate and chalets
Didn't we just had this discussion a few weeks ago?

Edit: I just realise that more_vampires actually found the link to the thread I was thinking about.
Move along - nothing to see here:wave:
 
Last edited:

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Didn't we just had this discussion a few weeks ago?

Edit: I just realise that more_vampires actually found the link to the thread I was thinking about.
Move along - nothing to see here:wave:
2wn8ub8.jpg


So? I like this thread better! :) Active Cooling thread was so 2014. This is 2015. :)

Nobody other than a hobbyist has ever made a flashlight with this:
jaal9y.jpg

It's a heat sink with phase change heat pipe plus radiator. Add a fan and now you're moving some serious heat.
 
Last edited:

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
http://www.lunaraccents.com/educational-LED-thermal-management.html
As the LED heat escalates, several key characteristics may become apparent, which deminstrate the importance of LED thermal mangament. The forward voltage will begin to decrease. The decreasing voltage can impose an increased load on related LED driver components causing their temperature to increase as well. In resistor driven circuits, the forward current will increase. As the LED lights temperature continues to rise, the optical wavelength can shift. The increasing wavelength can cause orange LED lights to appear red or even white LED lights to appear bluish. This color shift typically intensifies with the AlInGaP technologies (red, orange, amber, and yellow). In addition, a thermally stressed LED lights will loose efficiency and light output will diminish. If the LED thermal management continues to race out of control, the LED junction may break down causing a state of complete thermal runaway. The result is typically catastrophic failure. Other affects of overstressed LEDs may include broken wire bonds, delaminating, internal solder joint detachment, damage to die-bond epoxy, and lens yellowing.

Sinking a Maglite: http://www.instructables.com/id/LED...tion/step4/Heat-Sink-and-Copper-Pipe-Fitting/

Thermal management of high power led: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_management_of_high-power_LEDs

Led cooling design: http://www.qats.com/cms/free-thermal-management-led-lighting-resource-kit/

Calculating heat sinks: http://www.led-heatsink.com/LED_heat_sink_calculation_simulation_thermal_design.html

A whole lot of heat sinks: http://led-heatsink.com/

Casting heat sinks: http://www.mechanicalengineeringblog.com/tag/led-heat-sink/

Modding and heat sinking with Jayrob: http://laserpointerforums.com/f64/fs-mxdl-host-heatsink-combo-4171-3405-a-22512.html

Liquid cold plates: http://www.thermacore.com/products/cold-plates.aspx

A bunch of articles on LED heat: http://www.led-professional.com/products/led-thermal-management

We've just scratched the surface of heat management. This thread is not done by a long shot.
 
Last edited:

Bigwilly

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,111
2wn8ub8.jpg


So? I like this thread better! :) Active Cooling thread was so 2014. This is 2015. :)

Nobody other than a hobbyist has ever made a flashlight with this:
jaal9y.jpg

It's a heat sink with phase change heat pipe plus radiator. Add a fan and now you're moving some serious heat.

You Sir are my new best friend. LOL. Seriously, I now have a bunch of reading material and I really appreciate it.
 

more_vampires

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
:thumbsup:lovecpf:thumbsup:

I used to be a resident at Answers.com. I've always enjoyed doing this sort of thing.
 

Midnight.Sun

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
143
Are any manufacturers working on this? Any other ways for managing heat? I thought I saw a post where a member had a light that had a modded computer liquid cooling system in the light but it didn't go into much detail. Are there any other lights out there like this? ...

I remember this HID flashlight had catched my eye a year ago in a Microfire catalog :

http://www.microfire-system.com/FlieDownload.aspx?Url=635276439152300920.pdf

"Microfire Saucy 50 W HID" (read feature nm -6-)

image.png


image.png


image.png



Don't know if it has ever been produced, never seen it anywhere, its not listed in the 2015 edition unfortunately.
Very beautiful big HID light, actually i'v had the best dreams about its throw performance :whistle:.
 
Last edited:
Top