Best tint / color temp for sub-lumen lights?

I've been agonizing over the various new Easywhite Zebralights that are out. I love the ZL UI for it's inclusion of numerous sub-lumen and low lumen modes. Quite frankly, I rarely use any of my lights high modes at all. I use one of the moonlight sub-modes most often in my flashlights.

It has me thinking, is there a better tint for use at these low levels? Specifically, I'm looking at the ZL SC5Fc or Fd variants.

Do all LED's cool as they're driven at lesser voltages for sub-lumen levels? If so, that would push me toward the 4000k "c" variation. Otherwise, I'd be interested in the "d" flavour since I'm hoping it would be the closest to the Nichia 219's wonderful neutral white tint.

Primary use would be indoors. If it was for an outdoor light, I usually prefer the warmer temps to bring out browns and reds.

Thoughts?

all I can say is that when it comes to neutral tint my ZL SC600MkII is tint perfection at all out put levels I really enjoy it. I have other NW lights but none of them go sub lumen like my ZL does. Ive never been blown away by Nichia 219's sure they are pretty different but Ive got a couple XML2's and an XP-L HI that are close to what Ive seen come out of the Nichia. When it comes to low lumen and sub lumen modes my ZL is indeed by very far the most capable and controllable light I have yet seen. Hell my SC600 MkII to me is like trying to work a Rubiks Cube quickly pressing away at the switch going through all the levels etc..

Ive got a couple sub lumen lights that are CW and they are pretty nice but to my eyes ZL's NW just brings out what you see at low levels more color correct etc..even at low lumen and sub lumen levels CW still can easily wash out what I see...YMMV

Generally I would have gone straight for the "high" CRI c model at 4000k, but the Nichia has opened my eyes up as to what is possible in cooler tints, but still having a higher CRI rating. That's why I'm curious about the XML02 Easywhite at 5000k.

I already have a H501W which I like (it's a bit rosey, but that's OK) and a H51Fc that I like as well (used primarily outdoors). However, I prefer the tailstandability of the SC models for a bedside light. I have to replace the shitty SC80C that crapped itself...

I would personally go for the d version. I find a neutral-coolish tint better at really low levels. It really depends on the individual LED and your luck, though. My SC5w and SC62w technically have the same emitter, but the SC5w is much whiter; the SC62w almost looks yellow in comparison. In contrast, my SC600w looks like a cool white, but in a good way. I believe it's the heavy AR coating on the lens that cools it down. Also, my SC5w is BETTER than the Nichia in my eyes...never thought that day would come! Crazy variation on LEDs

Again, it's just personal preference, but I bet that 4000K "c" version would be too warm for me...at any level.

Websniper said:

is there a better tint for use at these low levels?

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Many would say tint is irrelevant at the lowest levels of output due to the way your eyes work. Rods and cones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell

The two classic photoreceptor cells are rods and cones, each contributing information used by the visual system to form a representation of the visual world, sight. The rods are narrower than the cones and distributed differently across the retina, but the chemical process in each that supports phototransduction is similar.[1]​ A third class of photoreceptor cells was discovered during the 1990s:[2]​ the photosensitive ganglion cells. These cells do not contribute to sight directly, but are thought to support circadian rhythms and pupillary reflex.

There are major functional differences between the rods and cones. Rods are extremely sensitive, and can be triggered by a single photon.[3]​[4]​ At very low light levels, visual experience is based solely on the rod signal. This explains why colors cannot be seen at low light levels: only one type of photoreceptor cell is active.

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In layman's terms, when we have fully darkness-adapted vision, our color vision goes to crap and tint doesn't matter.

That said, I want my sublumens in a nice warm tint even though science tells me I'm wasting my time. The flashaholic in me knows that the warm tint will be waiting for me when I ramp up the output.

Yeah I take a crap all over that science when I'm backpacking. When I wake up in the middle of the night and turn on my H600w @ .06lm, believe me, I see all the colors just fine. I have gear organized in different color dry bags, different color articles of clothing, etc. Maybe I have special eyes.

When I wake up in the middle of the night and turn on my H600w @ .06lm, believe me, I see all the colors just fine.

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With FNAV, I see colors differently with different lights. I actually test for this at night in a dark room with piles of differently colored objects.

FNAV?

more_vampires said:

With FNAV, I see colors differently with different lights. I actually test for this at night in a dark room with piles of differently colored objects.

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more_vampires said:

In layman's terms, when we have fully darkness-adapted vision, our color vision goes to crap and tint doesn't matter.

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Only if you're viewing a black & white image, such as a book. For any objects that reflect different colours, the tint of your light matters a lot, even though you can't see the colour. If you have a warm tint, then objects that are red and orange will appear brighter, and blue objects will appear blacker. If your tint is cool, the reverse is true.

IMO, a neutral tint is just as important in very dim applications, as it is in brighter applications. Just for different reasons.

Websniper said:

I've been agonizing over the various new Easywhite Zebralights that are out.

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By 'Easywhite', are you referring to tint, CRI, or the 'F'loody ZL models with an etched/diffuser lens? I don't recognize 'Easywhite' as being a part of Zebralight's specs or marketing...

Websniper said:

Do all LED's cool as they're driven at lesser voltages for sub-lumen levels? If so, that would push me toward the 4000k "c" variation. Otherwise, I'd be interested in the "d" flavour since I'm hoping it would be the closest to the Nichia 219's wonderful neutral white tint.

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I was under the impression that most LEDs get warmer when they are under-driven. Nevertheless, I find that tint matters *less* at moonlight levels, though I can still see the tint in moonlight output if I look closely. Or to put it another way, lights with an undesirable green or yellow tint still exhibit that color in sublumen modes (I think)... but I find it far less offensive. This may be because of the physiological reasons others have described above, or for psychological reasons (I *know* the light will be green, so that's how it looks, even though my eyes cannot really detect it...), or some combination of those factors.

Likewise, I find that the aesthetic benefits of a high-CRI emitter are less evident at moonlight levels, and I'm hard-pressed to tell the difference between a sublumen neutral white XM-L2 versus a sublumen Nichia 219. (some would argue that the difference is hard to discern at *high* output levels as well, but that's another thread )

Getting back to Zebralight's "c" and "d" models... I can't speak to the "d" emitter from personal experience, but my brother has an H502C, and it's noticeably warm (as the 4000K spec suggests). Warmer than I'd personally like... so if I had to choose between the two of them, I'd go with the "d" model. Having said that, I have a recent H52w with a beautiful tint that rivals my Nichia 219 lights, and my next purchase from them will certainly be a 'w' model.

All this tint stuff is pretty subjective, and YMMV.

Websniper said:

FNAV?

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Fully night adapted vision. Its when you sit in a darkened room for half an hour, hour. At a high degree of FNAV, a 2D maglite incan can blind you. Hurts. 1000 lumens will make you flinch and instinctively cover your face. I don't recommend it.

The vast majority of flashlights do not support it as they don't go low enough. Ambient light pollution, like the digital clock on your stove can hamper it.

FNAV works best in the pitch black dark. It makes you think your flashlight is a monster. Even though your FNAV light is only throwing handfuls of photons. The threshold of detection is supposedly only 1 photon, but you have to be dark adapted first.

ronniepudding said:

By 'Easywhite', are you referring to tint, CRI, or the 'F'loody ZL models with an etched/diffuser lens? I don't recognize 'Easywhite' as being a part of Zebralight's specs or marketing...

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It isn't a part of Zebralight's marketing. It's a part of Cree's marketing. Basically, Easywhite LEDs are supposedly more consistent when it comes to tint vs their 'regular' LEDs.

I'd get the d version. The lower the lumen output, the warmer the led gets compared to its full output. CRI also doesn't matter much at all at very low outputs.

more_vampires said:

Many would say tint is irrelevant at the lowest levels of output due to the way your eyes work. Rods and cones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoreceptor_cell
In layman's terms, when we have fully darkness-adapted vision, our color vision goes to crap and tint doesn't matter.

That said, I want my sublumens in a nice warm tint even though science tells me I'm wasting my time. The flashaholic in me knows that the warm tint will be waiting for me when I ramp up the output.

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Funny you posted this and glad you did. At sub-lumen I usually find no matter what light I have, it does not seem to matter as much as when i go to the higher levels. Sub-lumen is usually just getting around the house without tripping over a toy and killing myself vs knowing the best color rendition of that object in my path or the color of my stairs.

In my opinion, warm high CRI is best for all around use but especially low-lumen since it feels "softer" on the eyes then cooler tints.

Right. I was thinking of this:

StorminMatt said:

It isn't a part of Zebralight's marketing. It's a part of Cree's marketing. Basically, Easywhite LEDs are supposedly more consistent when it comes to tint vs their 'regular' LEDs.

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Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that acronym.

more_vampires said:

Fully night adapted vision. Its when you sit in a darkened room for half an hour, hour. At a high degree of FNAV, a 2D maglite incan can blind you. Hurts. 1000 lumens will make you flinch and instinctively cover your face. I don't recommend it.

The vast majority of flashlights do not support it as they don't go low enough. Ambient light pollution, like the digital clock on your stove can hamper it.

FNAV works best in the pitch black dark. It makes you think your flashlight is a monster. Even though your FNAV light is only throwing handfuls of photons. The threshold of detection is supposedly only 1 photon, but you have to be dark adapted first.

Click to expand...

more_vampires said:

Ambient light pollution, like the digital clock on your stove can hamper it.

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LOL, I'm the guy that has to put a post-it note or black tape over that in hotel rooms so I can sleep. Duct tape the curtains to seal out more light. Throw an extra blanket over the 1/4" gap under the door from the hallway.

This is something specifically that I was wondering about. Which tint would have the least affect on your night vision? It's not necessarily all about rendering perfect colors.

I've heard it mentioned that cooler LED's would be ideal for "tactical" lights where blinding an adversary would be desirable.

the.Mtn.Man said:

In my opinion, warm high CRI is best for all around use but especially low-lumen since it feels "softer" on the eyes then cooler tints.

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I'm much the same way. I specifically purchased a bedside alarm clock / iphone dock that I could shut off the time display completely to sleep. It pops back on when the alarm goes off.

markr6 said:

LOL, I'm the guy that has to put a post-it note or black tape over that in hotel rooms so I can sleep. Duct tape the curtains to seal out more light. Throw an extra blanket over the 1/4" gap under the door from the hallway.

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