We seem Stuck

Seems like we are stuck with 400-500 lumens with a single CR123 battery, and around 900-1000 lumens with a single 18650 battery. When do you all think we will break this barrier and what will it be?

I'm waiting for more lights with boost drivers to power 6V leds off one 18350 or 18650. A xhp50 that can be run off one 18650 at 4 or 5 amps would be great. Of course there are several high performance custom lights using triple xpl's and making over 3k lumens off of one 18650

hivoltage said:

Seems like we are stuck with 400-500 lumens with a single CR123 battery, and around 900-1000 lumens with a single 18650 battery. When do you all think we will break this barrier and what will it be?

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True, but we are slowly but surely pushing the numbers up. Look at the new Zebralight SC600 MKiii. With an XHP35 it is rated at 1300 lumen on a single 18650.

Stuck for sure. Seems like a 3 year stall.

Tac Gunner said:

I'm waiting for more lights with boost drivers to power 6V leds off one 18350 or 18650. A xhp50 that can be run off one 18650 at 4 or 5 amps would be great. Of course there are several high performance custom lights using triple xpl's and making over 3k lumens off of one 18650

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This. It's not hard to get 3,000+ lumens off triple XPL in a small single-18650 light. Beam pattern will be quite floody, but still focused enough to throw around 25,000 lux.

Now it's time for manufacturers to focus on other features... like tint/temp.

Your lights might be stuck.

I had a 1x18650 that did close to 1500lm, but what's the point? It got hotter than hell and stepped down quickly.

If you like stuffing a cell to 4.20v and measuring the 1500lm within the first 30 seconds right hot off the charger, sure. But that's not for me. Give me good runtimes, tint, quality and UI.

I think the question was more along the lines of "when will a new emitter breakthrough allow for a significantly perceivable lumens increase, while staying within reasonable limits of heat and runtimes"?

The answer is... eventually... but we are definitely at a plateau of the technology with diminishing returns. Which is fine with me.. I would be happy if outputs stayed relatively similar and the items became lower priced as efficiency/scale is increased.

And/or outputs and prices stayed similar... but quality and features increased...

holygeez03 said:

I think the question was more along the lines of "when will a new emitter breakthrough allow for a significantly perceivable lumens increase, while staying within reasonable limits of heat and runtimes"?

The answer is... eventually... but we are definitely at a plateau of the technology with diminishing returns. Which is fine with me.. I would be happy if outputs stayed relatively similar and the items became lower priced as efficiency/scale is increased.

And/or outputs and prices stayed similar... but quality and features increased...

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I like that!

And you can't have it. :naughty:

My Malkoff M61NLLLL is stuck at 30 lumens in my G2... :nana: In all seriousness, I'm happy for the moment with the outputs I'm seeing in my lights. more is nice, but I'd rather have something like Hound Dog 18650 that runs all-out until it dies, rather than the stepdown to a lower level just so the manufacturer can claim higher numbers for a short period of time. Give me the thermal management and simplicity to run unattended and not surprise me when turbo mode kicks down. Old guy with his $.02 here... :kiss:

I am pretty happy with my assortment also, just drumming up conversation and maybe learn whats coming!!

Yeah, its down to power + efficiency. Its rare that LEDs get brighter per area of space, like once every 5 years. What happens more often is a larger LED die. But this increases efficiency only a tiny bit and you loose throw at the same time. So without more efficiency, gains are made by adding power.

But power has its limits. With enough LEDs, 2000 lumens on one cell is not impossible. But some switches (like the Z59) can't handle the amperage, nor can some batteries (like the venerable CR123). So its more a question of how hard you want to push things (including budgets) to reach those new goals.

To get more 'easy lumens' (widely available at standard market prices), its goes back to basic unit improvements from CREE.

Single 18650, single die LED, 2000+ lumens & 2 hours runtime, 90+CRI

Oh I just woke up nevermind

scout24 said:

My Malkoff M61NLLLL is stuck at 30 lumens in my G2... :nana: In all seriousness, I'm happy for the moment with the outputs I'm seeing in my lights. more is nice, but I'd rather have something like Hound Dog 18650 that runs all-out until it dies, rather than the stepdown to a lower level just so the manufacturer can claim higher numbers for a short period of time. Give me the thermal management and simplicity to run unattended and not surprise me when turbo mode kicks down. Old guy with his $.02 here... :kiss:

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Malkoff in a G2. Not much to go wrong there. My prefered it has just gotta work light. Speaking of outputs I think the SC5 beats 500 lumens using 1XAA. So looks like we might be a bit less stuck.

hivoltage said:

Seems like we are stuck with 400-500 lumens with a single CR123 battery, and around 900-1000 lumens with a single 18650 battery. When do you all think we will break this barrier and what will it be?

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ElectronGuru said:

Some switches (like the Z59) can't handle the amperage, nor can some batteries (like the venerable CR123).

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There are two distinct batteries here. There is a nice discussion about prospects for 18650 above. As far as CR123A goes, however, only Dan has alluded to its inherent limitations.

All the datasheets for CR123A that I have seen rate it for a maximum continuous discharge of 1.5 amps. In a single-battery configuration, that is not enough to get the output levels mentioned in the OP. Flashlights like the ZebraLight SC32w and the Olight S1 routinely pull more than 1.5 amps from CR123A in their highest modes. When selfbuilt tested the Nitecore MH20, excessive current draw tripped the PTC protection in his CR123A batteries.

Elzetta is one of the few mainstream flashlight manufacturers designing top-notch flashlights that stay within discharge limits of CR123A. What about custom makers like Oveready, HDS, and Malkoff? I don't know much about their offerings, but given the excellent reputations of these designers, I would not be surprised to learn that they have models that respect the amperage limitations of CR123A.

CR123A offers advantages of compact size, long storage life, and tolerance for extremes of temperature. Those features guarantee CR123A a place in the world of modern LED flashlights. Applications demanding high current draw, however, are not the purview of CR123A. Those are better handled by other battery chemistries, such as Li-ion.

My answer, therefore, to the question asked by the OP is, "Yes. As far as CR123A goes, we are stuck with the 400-500 lumens of present designs." Frankly, most of those exceed the CR123A specs already. That barrier won't go away until a new generation of emitters allows higher output from the low current available from CR123A.

Its actually trickier than just the amp limit.

Modern lights have regulation and regulation aims for constant watts to the LED. So a light set to a 1.5a load at 3 volts will pull 4.5 watts at startup. But as the voltage drops, the same watts requires more amps. So that same 4.5w at even 2.5v is now pulling 1.8a. By 2.2v, its over 2 amps. By 1.8v, its over 2.5 amps. So to be 1.5 amps safe down to 1.5v, the system must either drop watts (output) along with volts or you gotta set power closer to 2.5w.

Things look better with 2xCR123 but startup of 6 volts at 1.5a is still only 9 watts. Even with 3xXPL, thats only 1000 lumens. If a light is promising more than that (or constant that) from CRs, somethings going to give. IMR are the way forward: high amps, stable chem, multiple sizes, and hundreds of runs per cell.

This is turning into a good thread! I'm interested to see what the next generation of emitters brings

Don't forget the ongoing research into storage technology as well. We have plateaued at our current levels for several years, with the only real changes the appearance of IMR/INR cells, whose real claim to fame is their ability to bear up under higher current loads. Until the next major step in storage density occurs, even an improvement in emitter efficiency will not make all that much change. But when we get the combination of both, jump back!