How concentrated a beam of light is best for self defense purposes?

thesilverfox

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If the primary purpose of a flashlight is self-defense, how concentrated do you want the beam of light? checked some youtube videos where it was made a point to look for a deep and smooth reflector because this concentrates the light, so if you're trying to blind/disorient an attacker, all the lumens you have at your disposal goes right into the other guy's eyes instead of lighting up the general area. But thinking about it, at some point it would get too narrow I should think, because the narrower it is, the harder it would be to aim it at his eyes, right? So does this ever happen, or is that point never really reached with modern self-defense flashlights?

Looking at a few now, and if we compare Nitecore P12GT to Olight M1X Striker, which would have the better beam for self defense? According to the stats listed, the peak intensity of the nitecore is 3 times that of the Olight, and the beam distance is about double.

If we assume I won't be using it as a striking weapon, which would be the better self defense light?

Thank you
 

HIDSGT

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the whole narrower thing is just the opposite. find the brightest light u can find with a strobe feature and none of the ones u listed are in that category. I had VinH upgrade the LED's, a power upgrade and De-dome it so it has more throw. the more throw it has the more focused the beam is. in fact, I wanted a more focused beam to see thru tinted windows better but works the same on someones eyes.

I use an Eagletac light VinH modified for me at work to blind criminals momentarily. lights with more throw are gonna have a more concentrated light and therefore be more blinding wen looking directly into them.

lights with more spill (meaning a wider throw) will be less blinding.
 

holygeez03

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I don't think you're going to find a light that is too concentrated for what you are looking for... outside of a laser pointer.

I consider a momentary tail switch to be critical in this application. I like the looks of the momentary switch on the P12GT... but it doesn't say if the light will always come on in High mode when using the momentary? That would be a good tactical feature if the momentary always output High and the side switch could be used for multi-mode w/memory... I use a Quark Tactical for this purpose with the head tight/loose UI, so I always know how the light will output when turned on... head tight = turbo, loose = medium (for more typical lighting tasks).

I can't tell if the M1X has a momentary switch... but I would hope so. The partially shrouded tail-switch of the P12GT allows for tail-stand and may help prevent accidental activation... but could make it clunkier to use... especially under high-stress.

If the switches function the same... go for the higher lux. But it will really come down to which one you think will provide the highest reliability.
 

Joe Talmadge

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Beam-wise, in this size more candlepower is relatively better, keeping in mind that there are defensive problems where part of the solution is identifying whether there's a threat and where it is... if you shine a light in an area, if there's no threat right where you're shining the beam, you still want enough spill to see he's under the desk a few feet away or behind the garbage dumpster down the alley. Still, lights this size with this much brightness should get you that. So, ignoring the fact that Nitecore seems to fib a bit on their specs, in theory the Nitecore would have a little bit of an edge, based just on the beam, but you should never decide just on that.

At which point, you have to look at other things also ... most importantly the fact that at least one reviewer is reporting a .4-.5s delay between when he presses the switch and when his P12GT comes on -- complete deal-killer for this usage, IMO. That leaves the STriker, but I'd still easily pick the ET DX30LC2-R over both these lights for this usage, IMO ... always comes on in high, forward momentary/clicky, easy 18650 recharging in the light, very very promising as a light for this purpose.
 

sween1911

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A nice spot with a good spill is desirable. There's no hard and fast rule as to how bright or how concetrated, but without spill, we can miss what's in the vicinity of where we're searching. Once you ID a threat, you put the spot in their eyes. I'm not completely sold on requiring a strobe, but some people have integrated it into their self defense light curriculum to great effect.

Best thing I can tell you is to work in the dark with another person, no airsoft guns or contact, and play with your lights of choice. See who can locate who first. Pay careful attention when playing the bad guy, that's when you learn what's good and bad because you can tell how easy it is to locate someone who is wandering around with a flashlight. I remember playing the bad guy in a dark shoot house with an airsoft gun, and feeling enormous relief when the good guy turned on his light pointing a giant arrow back at himself.

I'm a fan of single-mode, momentary only. It's easy especially inside a structure to blind ourselves with too much light. When you're searching with a light and you turn it off so you can move without being located, the brighter your light, the longer it takes for you to re-acclimate to darkness especially if you're looking where you're shining your spot. We're not always in 100% dark lightless areas. Even though we always need good bright light to positively ID the target, there's usually streetlights, reflections, moonlight, etc that we need to navigate with. Using that light with your flashlight off is part of the equation, so we don't want our main light to be too bright.
 
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holygeez03

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I fully agree with both Joe and sween above...

The delay reported in the P12GT switch is a complete no-go for tactical momentary. And if the Eagtac always comes on in high, with momentary, that's a huge plus.

I also agree about 100 - 300 lumens being plenty... as long as they are somewhat focused.

My Quark Tactical Neutral 14500 is perfect for my needs regarding this application... good momentary switch, essentially one mode as long as the head is tight... a less bright mode if the need arises... plenty of lumens to see what I'm doing and blind someone,but not too many to destroy my own eyes... compact size and deep-carry clip... AND pretty good color temp/tint for identification.

I have yet to find a valid replacement for my Quark in this application... the ET looks pretty good, but probably a bit too big for my carry preference.

HOLY CRAP... the ET DX30LC2-R comes in a Neutral XP-L HI option! Might need to check it out... who has them?
 
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WalkIntoTheLight

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If you think a flashlight, no matter how bright, is going to defend you against a determined attacker, ..., well, good luck with that.
 

Joe Talmadge

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If we assume I won't be using it as a striking weapon, which would be the better self defense light?

Just to re-iterate, in case you didn't pick it up: there's no such thing as any remote sort of guarantee that the <30k candlepower you get from these lights is going to stop or even slow down a determined badguy, so the first part of your sentence is at odds with the second part. You can hopefully identify threats and avoid them from farther away than without a light, and there's a .chance the light can give you a small moment of advantage (during which you might have a moment to close or flee)... that's it. We have heard stories of the light stopping someone, but the dynamics and thought processes are different when it's an armed police officer versus a civilian -- there's no relying on it, even for the police officer, regardless of even if you had 100k candlepower coming from your light. No worries if you realize this, but just a bit worried about the assumptions here.
 

holygeez03

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Who knows what kind of scenario the OP is envisioning... regardless, having a powerful light source CAN definitely provide advantages if leveraged properly.
 

Str8stroke

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Keep in mind that for tight quarters, typically found in a home or small room, there is such thing as too much light. Last thing you want to do is light the whole room up and allow the perp to see you clearly if they look away.

Good info in some of the above posts too.
 

cland72

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IMO, the best light is anything with a decent hot spot and enough spill to maintain awareness of your peripheral.

For me, the best tactical light is a Surefire 6P with a Malkoff M61 drop in. Great hot spot, but a nice amount of spill too.
 

Joe Talmadge

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Keep in mind that many of us automatically leap to "light used in conjunction with a firearm", whereas OP has stated he is specifically NOT going to use this with a firearm. He's talking about the light used in unarmed (or maybe, at most, armed with a stick or something) self defense. Presumably, based on the country he's in, there's a high probability the bad guy won't be armed with a firearm either (that's just a guess). Which led to my comments about expectations around his statement "If we assume I won't be using it as a striking weapon", and concern that he might have expected the light alone to stop someone (vs merely potentially open a small window of advantage).
 

CelticCross74

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Fenix PD35 TAC. One quick half press or click to high then a second to a devastating strobe. It is concentrated enough and switch response is instant
 

jhe888

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The OP said he wasn't going to hit the attacker with a light, but I don't think he told us whether he has a gun or not.

I'd use a light in conjunction with a gun, and it would primarily be so that I can see the target, with blinding the attacker as a secondary consideration. You are going to be close-ish or close in those situations, and almost anything we normally think of as a "tactical" light will be bright enough. If it is darkish, any bright light will be blinding enough for a few seconds, which is all you need.

Not to sound bloodthirsty, but if I was using a light to illuminate a potential target, the shooting is going to start just as quickly as I determine that the target is, in fact, a target. Manipulating a light while shooting makes the shooting a good bit less effective (I've done a fair amount of it), so I probably won't use any light, unless I just cannot see the target at all well enough to be sure it is a target. I am not likely to be shooting anyone in the dark unless there is a break in at my house, and in those circumstances, I'll be very nearly certain anyone in the house is not there legitimately.

If I were a cop, where I'd be more likely to be less sure I was justified in shooting or searching for someone, I'd be much more likely to use a light, even if it does make shooting harder.
 
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Joe Talmadge

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Fenix PD35 TAC. One quick half press or click to high then a second to a devastating strobe. It is concentrated enough and switch response is instant

In use with a firearm, to me this UI is in opposition to "flash and move" and absolutely unacceptable ... I don't know any experienced instructor who would find it acceptable. But I instantly became the least popular man on the Fenix PD35 TAC thread when I said this, so I know many others disagree. Even without a firearm, I personally wouldn't find it acceptable, but obviously, opinions vary :)

jhe888 said:
The OP said he wasn't going to hit the attacker with a light, but I don't think he told us whether he has a gun or not.

You're right, he didn't tell us in this thread. I just happened to see that silverfox also started up another thread on a different aspect of defensive usage, and there he was quite clear. I'm just bringing the rest of his context over here...
 

thesilverfox

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I guess I should have specified that I won't be using it with a gun. Where I live the laws are very strict. I get caught with a knife, I go to jail. A baton, I go to jail. A gun, I got to jail for a long time. And I'm a bit sceptical about flashlights designed to be used as impact weapons, because strictly speaking that can also mean jailtime. I don't expect a cop would react to a flashlight with a bezel made for striking if he saw it in some other context, but if I get attacked and end up using it to crack someone's skull, I can easily imagine a striking-bezel throwing a monkey-wrench in a self-defense argument and turning it into a potential manslaughter case. Don't get me wrong, I'd hit a guy if I'm in that situation, but I think I might start carrying a metal pen in the other pocket and use that rather than the light. And I'm certainly not putting myself in danger and thinking "no need for something serious, a light will stop anything", it's simply the case that I cant actually have any real weapons, so it's not a light or a gun, it's a light or nothing.

As I understand it, both of the lights that I mentioned have a button on the back that can be clicked on and off or half-pressed for momentous light, and when this button is used they will both go to the mode last used that is selected by a mode changing button on the side. So with both, I will set it to either high or strobe and keep it there, and when I need it I'll use the back button and it will come out in high.


The site I've been looking at has EAGTAC DX30LC2, is that the one you were talking about? It says comming in november on the site, I'll ask if they have it or if they have an ETA on it at least.

I'll also ask if the guy running the site can check to see if there's any delay in the button for the p12gt. I found think I found the review you're refering to, so I'll have the guy check it out for me and if it's the same for all the p12gt models, then I'd agree that's kind of a dealbreaker.
 

jhe888

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I don't mean to be a smart ***, but I'd focus on staying away from trouble if you can't use any weapons. That is good advice for all of us, of course. Use a light to temporarily blind an attacker and run like hell.
 
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I think this is just about the right amount of beam concentration.

~ Chance

aJ3rsBu.jpg
 

bykfixer

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If the primary purpose of a flashlight is self-defense, how concentrated do you want the beam of light? checked some youtube videos where it was made a point to look for a deep and smooth reflector because this concentrates the light, so if you're trying to blind/disorient an attacker, all the lumens you have at your disposal goes right into the other guy's eyes instead of lighting up the general area. But thinking about it, at some point it would get too narrow I should think, because the narrower it is, the harder it would be to aim it at his eyes, right? So does this ever happen, or is that point never really reached with modern self-defense flashlights?

Looking at a few now, and if we compare Nitecore P12GT to Olight M1X Striker, which would have the better beam for self defense? According to the stats listed, the peak intensity of the nitecore is 3 times that of the Olight, and the beam distance is about double.

If we assume I won't be using it as a striking weapon, which would be the better self defense light?

Thank you


You're over thinking it.

Many a teen ager parked on lovers lane saw spots for hours when being spotlighted by the policemans 65 lumen Sure Fire incan, or the 60 lumen Streamlight incan.

Now some are better at further distances. So if you mean from say 75 yards, sure angle plays a roll. So does output and lens.

But if you mean disorient a bad guy who snuck up behind you...nearly anything over 45 lumens will do the trick. But that depends on how well lit an area you're in.

Go to Malkoff Devices and read the description of each M60 drop in. Each one tells how far away they are potential blinders. You'll be surprised at how much lumens YOU DON'T need to get the job done. His beams are kinda an average between spot and spill. A thrower will be better at a distance than a flooder. You're certainly right there.

I think my 75 lumen low/low drop in says 50' radius? 50' is roughly 16 paces. (to the pixel counters I didn't say steps).
I think the 320 says 75 yard radius? I can say this. You do not want to shine either in your own eyes.

I carry close quarters type self defense lights. (50' blinders) Dude gets in my imaginary 10' circle unannounced, he may or may not be seeing spots.
Gets in my 3' circle...yeah it's on then. He may develop some leaks at that point.
 
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thesilverfox

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I don't mean to be a smart ***, but I'd focus on staying away from trouble if you can't use any weapons. That is good advice for all of us, of course. Use a light to temporarily blind an attacker and run like hell.

That's a bit like saying it's better to work out instead of eating right, isn't it? It's not either stay out of trouble or seek out trouble but carry a flashlight. I have no need for getting into brawls on dark streets, but I do sometimes have a need to walk through dark streets, so I'd rather have every edge I can have than to not have it, at least if it doesn't cost me much in money/inconvenience/risk. And a small 80 gram piece of metal in my pocket that's perfectly legal to carry and a useful thing in general that can give me an edge to either escape or win a fight seems like a good thing to have.

There aren't many guns on the streets where I live, so the odds of encountering an armed mugger is pretty unlikely. Major criminals and bankrobbers have guns, but random tough guys on the street very rarely do around here. The biggest threat to my safety are generally drunk people who get agressive or teenage muggers, and neither is likely to have a gun.
 
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