Sir William Gates
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Harrkev
Enlightened
So now they are knighting robber barrons. I wonder when Jeff Dahmer will get knighted...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Maybe it's because of this?
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation donates billions of dollars to the causes of education, immunization, and medical research.
People will ***** about anything. This is why I don't usually read the Cafe.
Maybe it's because of this?
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation donates billions of dollars to the causes of education, immunization, and medical research.
People will ***** about anything. This is why I don't usually read the Cafe.
Bravo25
Flashlight Enthusiast
I wouldn't want to secind guess all the good the money does for the organizations. They can use all they can get.
Then again the money he gives, in relative percentage, is probably equal to my $100.00. But then he gets to write all of that off his taxes, I don't. So lets don't assume that Bill does it simply out the goodness of his heart.
Then again the money he gives, in relative percentage, is probably equal to my $100.00. But then he gets to write all of that off his taxes, I don't. So lets don't assume that Bill does it simply out the goodness of his heart.
Bravo25 said: "But then he gets to write all of that off his taxes"
He gets a write-off plus kickback, at least from what I've read anyway. Just another tax dodging scheme seems to me like. It would certainly be in his character from everything else that I know about him.
He gets a write-off plus kickback, at least from what I've read anyway. Just another tax dodging scheme seems to me like. It would certainly be in his character from everything else that I know about him.
MichiganMan
Enlightened
Wow, I'm not too fond of the guy either but his money, kicked back or not, has probably done more good since the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has been founded than the combined total contributions made by any of us in this forum.
Lighten up guys, try to remember through the cloud of bitterness that charities getting money is a good thing.
Lighten up guys, try to remember through the cloud of bitterness that charities getting money is a good thing.
Let's not forget that Mr. Gates has pledged to donate 95% of ALL his money to charities and foundations.
Granted, he has enough that he can still maintain his lifestyle on the remaining 5%, but still, nobody is forcing him to give the rest of it away. Tax writeoff? He'd have to have a really bad accountant to pay as much in taxes as he is giving away. And 95% of what he saves on taxes ends up going to charity anyway.
I can sometimes be pretty cynical, but even I can't find any wrong in that.
Granted, he has enough that he can still maintain his lifestyle on the remaining 5%, but still, nobody is forcing him to give the rest of it away. Tax writeoff? He'd have to have a really bad accountant to pay as much in taxes as he is giving away. And 95% of what he saves on taxes ends up going to charity anyway.
I can sometimes be pretty cynical, but even I can't find any wrong in that.
Well, if the tax laws are ever changed so that the rich have to pay their full taxes whether they choose to donate to a charity or not, then we will see who has real charity in their heart and who is only running a tax scam where they write it off on their taxes and in addition get kickback of one form or another from the organization that they are donating to. If he still chooses to donate then, I might just have to reevaluate my view of him, but knowing what I know about him from what I've read about his sleazy practices in the past, this just screams tax scam to me.
Also remember the story of the widows mite. If he gives out of such an excess that he never even feels it then he has made no real sacrifice at all. If he were to start donating in the high billions instead of the low millions, that might also impress me that he has truly reformed his ways. You have to remember, a million dollars to a man that has close to 100 billion dollars is about like me donating $.10 to charity, or a person that is a little bit better off financially than myself donating $1.00. Still no real sacrifice.
I to have read about how he has pledged to donate 95% of his money to charity, but the sign of what kind of person you really are is what you do and have done, not what you promise that you are going to do. If promises meant anything much at all, then I wouldn't have anything against the republican nor democratic parties, but in the real world, promises from people that don't tend to keep them are pretty well meaningless.
I guess it all comes down to whether you really believe that he will keep his word, but judging by his past actions, I would predict no, but this is only my own opinion, an opinion based on his past actions. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, people are always capable of change and reform, but if he wants me to believe that he has reformed then he will have to prove it by his actions, not his promises.
Also remember the story of the widows mite. If he gives out of such an excess that he never even feels it then he has made no real sacrifice at all. If he were to start donating in the high billions instead of the low millions, that might also impress me that he has truly reformed his ways. You have to remember, a million dollars to a man that has close to 100 billion dollars is about like me donating $.10 to charity, or a person that is a little bit better off financially than myself donating $1.00. Still no real sacrifice.
I to have read about how he has pledged to donate 95% of his money to charity, but the sign of what kind of person you really are is what you do and have done, not what you promise that you are going to do. If promises meant anything much at all, then I wouldn't have anything against the republican nor democratic parties, but in the real world, promises from people that don't tend to keep them are pretty well meaningless.
I guess it all comes down to whether you really believe that he will keep his word, but judging by his past actions, I would predict no, but this is only my own opinion, an opinion based on his past actions. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, people are always capable of change and reform, but if he wants me to believe that he has reformed then he will have to prove it by his actions, not his promises.
GJW
Flashlight Enthusiast
Time to pull this out again.....
How Taxes Work . . .
This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws.
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59.
That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language -- a tax cut).
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"
The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.
But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!
How Taxes Work . . .
This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws.
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man -- the richest -- would pay $59.
That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language -- a tax cut).
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"
The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.
But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
Thank you very much GJW!!!!
I have absolutely no connection with Microsoft, Bill Gates, or anything connected with him other than having spent thousands of dollars of mine, my employers, and others money on products made by MS. No one I personally know works for MS, nor do I have any relatives who do.
BUT...
I am more than tired of people b******* about his money.
This man is the personification of the American Dream, a college dropout who found a niche which no one else wanted at the time and exploited the heck out of it.
Once he had made his product, through his own hard work, imagination, stubborness, and and the help of those he hired and paid VERY well, dominate the market, others jumped in and yelled and screamed about a monopoly.
Sorry, but this is a case of the have nots complaining about the haves, except that only a little more than 20 years ago, he was a have not, too.
Literally thousands of people are now millionaires because of Microsoft, in fact, it singlehandedly has created more millionaires than ANY business ever founded, and has done it in less than 3 decades. The taxes paid by Microsoft and its employees literally run into the billions every year, and probably are the largest single contributor to the tax roles.
Microsoft is THE American Dream, and anyone who complains does so out of envy, greed, or just plain meanspiritedness.
Are their products perfect, of course not. Do they sometimes do things that drive me nuts, of course they do.
But remember, Bill Gates knew, NOT thought, he KNEW, that people would want computers in their homes when most of the rest of the industry was still more than skeptical at that thought, and HE, not anyone else, had the vision and foresight to do something about it!
Enough, I'm off my horse now!
Bill
I have absolutely no connection with Microsoft, Bill Gates, or anything connected with him other than having spent thousands of dollars of mine, my employers, and others money on products made by MS. No one I personally know works for MS, nor do I have any relatives who do.
BUT...
I am more than tired of people b******* about his money.
This man is the personification of the American Dream, a college dropout who found a niche which no one else wanted at the time and exploited the heck out of it.
Once he had made his product, through his own hard work, imagination, stubborness, and and the help of those he hired and paid VERY well, dominate the market, others jumped in and yelled and screamed about a monopoly.
Sorry, but this is a case of the have nots complaining about the haves, except that only a little more than 20 years ago, he was a have not, too.
Literally thousands of people are now millionaires because of Microsoft, in fact, it singlehandedly has created more millionaires than ANY business ever founded, and has done it in less than 3 decades. The taxes paid by Microsoft and its employees literally run into the billions every year, and probably are the largest single contributor to the tax roles.
Microsoft is THE American Dream, and anyone who complains does so out of envy, greed, or just plain meanspiritedness.
Are their products perfect, of course not. Do they sometimes do things that drive me nuts, of course they do.
But remember, Bill Gates knew, NOT thought, he KNEW, that people would want computers in their homes when most of the rest of the industry was still more than skeptical at that thought, and HE, not anyone else, had the vision and foresight to do something about it!
Enough, I'm off my horse now!
Bill
@GJW: That was a really fun story to read and I got a kick out of it, but in the real world things work a little bit differently.
I had college level economics class several years back and my economics teacher did the math of how much the rich pay in proportion to the poor and it was very shocking, well, to me at least. If I recall his numbers correctly, if you took all of the money that the top 1% of the richest citizens pay in taxes for the year, it would only run the country for something like a little over 2 weeks. It is the poor and middle class that produce the taxes that are necessary to run this country, not the wealthy, like many believe, myself included till I took economics.
Also, in the above analogy, there is no way that 4 out of every 10 people in this country pay no taxes either, even if you counted babies and children. Even if you don't make the limit to pay federal taxes (which is quite low), you are sure to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes and everyone pays sales tax, whether rich, poor or even homeless. That is 10% of your income spent, forked over to the government right there, no matter who you are, rich or poor. Then there are taxes such as wheel tax, property tax and state income tax to factor in.
Anyway, to get back to my original point, the rich are not the ones that pay the bulk of the taxes in this country, even if they are in a higher tax bracket than us. Then you have to figure in all of the ways that the rich have of getting out of paying taxes in the first place that a poor factory worker could never pull off. Such tricks as incorporating your business overseas, changing citizenship, hiding funds in off-shore bank accounts and donating to charities that you have a prearrangement with to get some form of kickback from.
A flat tax would shore up many of the loopholes that the rich are able to exploit, but you see how quickly that idea was shot down in congress the last time there was a movement to get it passed into law. A flat tax would also eliminate the need to have to pay someone to do your taxes to because it would be simple enough that anyone could do it on their own. It would also eliminate many jobs in the IRS because there wouldn't be a need for so many skilled people to interpret overly complicated tax laws. Oh well, I'm just day dreaming here anyway because it will never happen. The rich are much too fond of their tax loopholes to ever have any real tax reform.
I had college level economics class several years back and my economics teacher did the math of how much the rich pay in proportion to the poor and it was very shocking, well, to me at least. If I recall his numbers correctly, if you took all of the money that the top 1% of the richest citizens pay in taxes for the year, it would only run the country for something like a little over 2 weeks. It is the poor and middle class that produce the taxes that are necessary to run this country, not the wealthy, like many believe, myself included till I took economics.
Also, in the above analogy, there is no way that 4 out of every 10 people in this country pay no taxes either, even if you counted babies and children. Even if you don't make the limit to pay federal taxes (which is quite low), you are sure to pay Medicare and Social Security taxes and everyone pays sales tax, whether rich, poor or even homeless. That is 10% of your income spent, forked over to the government right there, no matter who you are, rich or poor. Then there are taxes such as wheel tax, property tax and state income tax to factor in.
Anyway, to get back to my original point, the rich are not the ones that pay the bulk of the taxes in this country, even if they are in a higher tax bracket than us. Then you have to figure in all of the ways that the rich have of getting out of paying taxes in the first place that a poor factory worker could never pull off. Such tricks as incorporating your business overseas, changing citizenship, hiding funds in off-shore bank accounts and donating to charities that you have a prearrangement with to get some form of kickback from.
A flat tax would shore up many of the loopholes that the rich are able to exploit, but you see how quickly that idea was shot down in congress the last time there was a movement to get it passed into law. A flat tax would also eliminate the need to have to pay someone to do your taxes to because it would be simple enough that anyone could do it on their own. It would also eliminate many jobs in the IRS because there wouldn't be a need for so many skilled people to interpret overly complicated tax laws. Oh well, I'm just day dreaming here anyway because it will never happen. The rich are much too fond of their tax loopholes to ever have any real tax reform.
@bwaites: I don't care to get into any sort of Bill Gates debate here because there are entire web sites out there that are dedicated to exposing all of the scummy things that he has done in his life, but I can take a few moments to debunk a few common myths.
One such myth is that Bill Gates started out life poor and then just worked his way up to where he is today (I.E. the American dream myth). This is simply not true. He started out life with a multi-million dollar trust and was rich beyond most people's wildest dreams before he even started Microsoft.
Another myth is that he wrote DOS and Windows himself. He didn't write DOS, he bought the program and then put in some additions. In fact, almost every technology that Microsoft owns today they didn't create on their own, but they either stole it or bought somebody out and then made their own little additions to it.
Yet another myth. Everyone is just jealous because of his money. Well, there are a heck of a lot of others out there that are mega-wealthy that aren't tied up in endless lawsuits anywhere near like Microsoft and Gates are. People aren't jealous of the money, they are suing him constantly because of all of the crooked things that he has done over the years. Again, I don't care to get into details here, there are entire web sites that detail all of this stuff and for me to list it would be redundant.
Another myth is that Bill Gates came up with all of the nifty features in windows on his own, such as the GUI (Graphical User Interface) itself. The truth of the matter is that the most major parts of the technology were stolen from Xerox and Apple Computer. This is why Microsoft was tied up in lawsuits with Apple for many many years. The only reason that Gates wasn't held responsible for what he had done is that he simply had the cash to outlast Apple in court and Apple eventually had to either drop the lawsuit or go bankrupt. Again, the details of this very famous lawsuit can be found all over the net.
Then there are all of the monopoly and antitrust lawsuits that have been brought by the U.S., individual states and by many foreign countries to consider. There are literally thousands of web sites that go into great detail on these lawsuits and why they were brought.
Then there is my own personal favorite from more recent times. The instance that I'm referring to is where Gates bribed off Bush to get him to put pressure on the various states that were involved in antitrust lawsuits with Microsoft. Gates made a massive campaign contribution and not 2 weeks into Bush's term, he came out with a speech, in a very threatening tone, pressuring the states to drop their lawsuits against Microsoft. I'm sure that many here probably still remember that speech. I know that it sure has stuck in my mind even after all of this time.
Well, I'm really tired now and am ready for bed so I will leave off here. I just wanted to put enough out there to let everyone know that there is good reason why so many people in the world hate Gates and Microsoft and it has absolutely nothing to do with them being "jealous of his money".
One such myth is that Bill Gates started out life poor and then just worked his way up to where he is today (I.E. the American dream myth). This is simply not true. He started out life with a multi-million dollar trust and was rich beyond most people's wildest dreams before he even started Microsoft.
Another myth is that he wrote DOS and Windows himself. He didn't write DOS, he bought the program and then put in some additions. In fact, almost every technology that Microsoft owns today they didn't create on their own, but they either stole it or bought somebody out and then made their own little additions to it.
Yet another myth. Everyone is just jealous because of his money. Well, there are a heck of a lot of others out there that are mega-wealthy that aren't tied up in endless lawsuits anywhere near like Microsoft and Gates are. People aren't jealous of the money, they are suing him constantly because of all of the crooked things that he has done over the years. Again, I don't care to get into details here, there are entire web sites that detail all of this stuff and for me to list it would be redundant.
Another myth is that Bill Gates came up with all of the nifty features in windows on his own, such as the GUI (Graphical User Interface) itself. The truth of the matter is that the most major parts of the technology were stolen from Xerox and Apple Computer. This is why Microsoft was tied up in lawsuits with Apple for many many years. The only reason that Gates wasn't held responsible for what he had done is that he simply had the cash to outlast Apple in court and Apple eventually had to either drop the lawsuit or go bankrupt. Again, the details of this very famous lawsuit can be found all over the net.
Then there are all of the monopoly and antitrust lawsuits that have been brought by the U.S., individual states and by many foreign countries to consider. There are literally thousands of web sites that go into great detail on these lawsuits and why they were brought.
Then there is my own personal favorite from more recent times. The instance that I'm referring to is where Gates bribed off Bush to get him to put pressure on the various states that were involved in antitrust lawsuits with Microsoft. Gates made a massive campaign contribution and not 2 weeks into Bush's term, he came out with a speech, in a very threatening tone, pressuring the states to drop their lawsuits against Microsoft. I'm sure that many here probably still remember that speech. I know that it sure has stuck in my mind even after all of this time.
Well, I'm really tired now and am ready for bed so I will leave off here. I just wanted to put enough out there to let everyone know that there is good reason why so many people in the world hate Gates and Microsoft and it has absolutely nothing to do with them being "jealous of his money".
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
Sorry X-Cal, but the simple fact is that most of the lawsuits go nowhere because there is no basis in real law, not because he can outlast the opposition, (though he can or could outlast just about everyone but the US Govenrnment).
It's amazing how many conspiracy theories there are out there, it must be VERY discouraging to live your life afraid that everyone else is out to take something from you!
If you will re-read my initial post, you will note that:
A) I never said Bill Gates or MS invented DOS, only that he took the initiative to develop it and then expand it into all the things it has become.
B) I never said he was a rags to riches story, only that he has lived the American Dream of taking something and making it bigger and better when others did not have the vision to do so. Whether he had a trust fund or not has NOTHING to do with his success, hundreds of thousands of Americans start life with trust funds and make NO contribution or ever have an original idea.
C) Lawsuits and the so called mega-wealthy. Sorry, but if you really research this one you will find that virtually EVERY very rich person has suffered through multiple lawsuits. In fact, I can't find a single one who HASN'T had a suit filed againsgt them, and most have had multiple. Most wealthy people understand that someone will be offended by their decisions and simply count lawsuits as a cost of doing business, that is why they keep attorneys on retainer.
D) I certainly did not state that Bill Gates or MS came up with ANYTHING on their own, building on others foundations is a great technological and scientific tradition. Einstein didn't develop the nuclear bomb or nuclear reactors, but without his theories they wouldn't have been developed, Newton didn't invent gravity, but without him we wouldn't have begun to understand it, Copernicus and Galileo didn't invent the theories of the solar system, the Arab, Chinese, and even Mayan/Aztecan astonomers had it right long before either was born, and yet without them, the dark ages might never have been over.
E) Web sites criticizing someone/something are easy to start and impossible to stop. The fact that critical sites exist only proves that someone was offended, not that some great moral wrong has been committed. EVERY major and most minor religions have many critical websites, does that make them all bad? Of course not, it is far easier to criticize than to do something constructive. If people don't like MS products, there are alternatives, ie. Linux, Wordperfect, Netscape, etc.
F) Is Bill Gates perfect? Of course not, he has his warts just like the rest of us. Is he hyper-competetive? WOW,is he! Of course, there ARE all those thousands of people who work for MS who support their families because he is that way. He didn't fold when people tried to run him over, and because of that MS is the dominant player in the field. If wanting to win is a fault, then he has a big one. Does he compete unfairly? That depends on what your point of view is, some would say he just pushes the envelope REALLY, REALLY hard, and is VERY, VERY protective. (Sounds a lot like Surefire!!)
Nevertheless, the vilification of Bill Gates is nothing short of an American travesty. Go looking for some more REAL bad guys, like Bin Laden, the ultra conservative Mullahs, the Mujahadeen, etc..
Bill
It's amazing how many conspiracy theories there are out there, it must be VERY discouraging to live your life afraid that everyone else is out to take something from you!
If you will re-read my initial post, you will note that:
A) I never said Bill Gates or MS invented DOS, only that he took the initiative to develop it and then expand it into all the things it has become.
B) I never said he was a rags to riches story, only that he has lived the American Dream of taking something and making it bigger and better when others did not have the vision to do so. Whether he had a trust fund or not has NOTHING to do with his success, hundreds of thousands of Americans start life with trust funds and make NO contribution or ever have an original idea.
C) Lawsuits and the so called mega-wealthy. Sorry, but if you really research this one you will find that virtually EVERY very rich person has suffered through multiple lawsuits. In fact, I can't find a single one who HASN'T had a suit filed againsgt them, and most have had multiple. Most wealthy people understand that someone will be offended by their decisions and simply count lawsuits as a cost of doing business, that is why they keep attorneys on retainer.
D) I certainly did not state that Bill Gates or MS came up with ANYTHING on their own, building on others foundations is a great technological and scientific tradition. Einstein didn't develop the nuclear bomb or nuclear reactors, but without his theories they wouldn't have been developed, Newton didn't invent gravity, but without him we wouldn't have begun to understand it, Copernicus and Galileo didn't invent the theories of the solar system, the Arab, Chinese, and even Mayan/Aztecan astonomers had it right long before either was born, and yet without them, the dark ages might never have been over.
E) Web sites criticizing someone/something are easy to start and impossible to stop. The fact that critical sites exist only proves that someone was offended, not that some great moral wrong has been committed. EVERY major and most minor religions have many critical websites, does that make them all bad? Of course not, it is far easier to criticize than to do something constructive. If people don't like MS products, there are alternatives, ie. Linux, Wordperfect, Netscape, etc.
F) Is Bill Gates perfect? Of course not, he has his warts just like the rest of us. Is he hyper-competetive? WOW,is he! Of course, there ARE all those thousands of people who work for MS who support their families because he is that way. He didn't fold when people tried to run him over, and because of that MS is the dominant player in the field. If wanting to win is a fault, then he has a big one. Does he compete unfairly? That depends on what your point of view is, some would say he just pushes the envelope REALLY, REALLY hard, and is VERY, VERY protective. (Sounds a lot like Surefire!!)
Nevertheless, the vilification of Bill Gates is nothing short of an American travesty. Go looking for some more REAL bad guys, like Bin Laden, the ultra conservative Mullahs, the Mujahadeen, etc..
Bill
@bwaites: I never claimed that you said those things. I only said that I was debunking some very common myths, and I did. I also said that I don't care to get into a debate about this because if you really wanted to know what Bill has been up to all of these years, there are literally thousands of web sites that go into great detail with all of his legal shenanigans.
I also find it quite ironic that England has antitrust lawsuits going with Microsoft and at the same time, here is her queen about to knight the very person that they are entangled with in lawsuits.
I will say one last thing on the subject though, you go on and on about all of the people that have a job because of Bill Gates and you neglect to mention all of the many more thousands of people that were put out of their jobs by Bill Gates and his abuse of his monopoly. I just thought that was important enough of a fact to be worth mentioning before I drop out of this redundant discussion.
I hope that you are not offended by what I have said here, but it's obvious that we are on completely opposite sides on this particular issue and to continue to debate what has been debated a thousand times over on more than a thousand other message boards is just a waste of both of our time, so I will save us both some time and just gracefully bow out.
You win, Gates is great and deserves all of the psedohonors that the figurehead royal monarchy of a foreign country can heap upon him. The end.
I also find it quite ironic that England has antitrust lawsuits going with Microsoft and at the same time, here is her queen about to knight the very person that they are entangled with in lawsuits.
I will say one last thing on the subject though, you go on and on about all of the people that have a job because of Bill Gates and you neglect to mention all of the many more thousands of people that were put out of their jobs by Bill Gates and his abuse of his monopoly. I just thought that was important enough of a fact to be worth mentioning before I drop out of this redundant discussion.
I hope that you are not offended by what I have said here, but it's obvious that we are on completely opposite sides on this particular issue and to continue to debate what has been debated a thousand times over on more than a thousand other message boards is just a waste of both of our time, so I will save us both some time and just gracefully bow out.
You win, Gates is great and deserves all of the psedohonors that the figurehead royal monarchy of a foreign country can heap upon him. The end.
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
You are right this isn't the forum.
But it is also obvious that you prefer to believe what the liberal media wants you to believe about MS.
The knighthood is a joke, but so are all of them except the ones which occur because of some extraordinary service to humanity. Jonas Salk deserved one, Sir Edmund Hillary didn't for climbing Mt. Everest, but did for his service to the people of Nepal after the fact.
Bill
But it is also obvious that you prefer to believe what the liberal media wants you to believe about MS.
The knighthood is a joke, but so are all of them except the ones which occur because of some extraordinary service to humanity. Jonas Salk deserved one, Sir Edmund Hillary didn't for climbing Mt. Everest, but did for his service to the people of Nepal after the fact.
Bill
bwaites said: "The knighthood is a joke"
Now there is something that we can both agree upon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I thought that ever since they showed Mick Jagger being knighted a while back. What a joke is exactly what I was thinking at the time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Now there is something that we can both agree upon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I thought that ever since they showed Mick Jagger being knighted a while back. What a joke is exactly what I was thinking at the time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Harrkev
Enlightened
It is not just the liberal media. I am a conservative. I voted for George W.
And yet I despise Bill Gates. And liberal/conservative has NOTHING to do with it. I work in technology for a living, and I do not like the way that Microsoft is run.
I used to be able to install an operating system without begging the manufacturer for permission to do this (windows product activation). WPA was supposed to help stem piracy, which costs us money by forcing prices up. WPA has been around for a couple of years, and I have not seen any drops in the cost of Windows yet. But I am not holding my breath.
It has noting to do with how rich he is. It has everything to do with how I, as a consumer, am treated. Microsoft can get away with shafting their customers because they have a monopoly. Linux is the only reason that things aren't worse. At least it is some competition that cannot be crushed. Too bad it is not ready for the average person yet...
And yet I despise Bill Gates. And liberal/conservative has NOTHING to do with it. I work in technology for a living, and I do not like the way that Microsoft is run.
I used to be able to install an operating system without begging the manufacturer for permission to do this (windows product activation). WPA was supposed to help stem piracy, which costs us money by forcing prices up. WPA has been around for a couple of years, and I have not seen any drops in the cost of Windows yet. But I am not holding my breath.
It has noting to do with how rich he is. It has everything to do with how I, as a consumer, am treated. Microsoft can get away with shafting their customers because they have a monopoly. Linux is the only reason that things aren't worse. At least it is some competition that cannot be crushed. Too bad it is not ready for the average person yet...
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
[ QUOTE ]
X-CalBR8 said:
I had college level economics class several years back and my economics teacher did the math of how much the rich pay in proportion to the poor and it was very shocking, well, to me at least. If I recall his numbers correctly, if you took all of the money that the top 1% of the richest citizens pay in taxes for the year, it would only run the country for something like a little over 2 weeks. It is the poor and middle class that produce the taxes that are necessary to run this country, not the wealthy, like many believe, myself included till I took economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, for "progressive taxes" from the IRS Income Tax Returns of 2001:
Top 1% pay 33% of US Income Taxes
Top 5% pay 53% of US Income Taxes
Top 50% pay 96% of US Income Taxes
Bottom 50% pay <4% of US Income Taxes
Now, if you want to include Payroll taxes (which are not supposed to be progressive, but instead pay for specific, wage dependent things like retirement, unemployment, etc.:
SSI, everyone pays ~15% up to ~$85,000 or so
Medicare, everyone pays ~1.5% (no spending cap)
Marginal Income tax rate in California ~10% (over ~100,000/yr)
Cal Unemployment tax proposed for 2004, 10% of $29k limit
Cal Disability income tax 9.9% (for a machinist)
Cal Disability income tax 42% (for a screen door installer)
Arizona Dis. income tax 3.3% (for a machinist)
Other Taxes:
Cal Sales tax is around 8.25% (except food from grocery store)
Cal Property Tax is approximately 1.2% of accessed valuation
Cigarette and Liquor taxes of many times the base cost of the product
X-Cal, what would you have us do differently. Most "rich" people (and others) would prefer the flat income tax rate of 15% that Russia now has, that Iraq (courtesy of the US led government) now has... And don't forget, that when (or, you are very paranoid, if) Mr. and Mrs. Gate die, they will have to give some 50% percent inheritance taxes to the government--unless they both die in 2010 where for one year there are no inheritance taxes.
I would argue not that we are not taxed enough, but we are spending too much.
And, by the way, that for that poor screen door installer, add up the taxes the employer/employee is paying, without any of that progressive state sales/income and federal income tax:
1.5%+10%+15%+42%=~68% tax rate if he only made $29k/year
It is to the politician's benefit to keep us blind to how much they really do collect.
Are you unhappy that the SSI, Unemployment taxes are capped on income? Those are the only major taxes can be raised--unless you want to go from the ~35% US Marginal Tax rate back to those early 1960 marginal tax rates of 70% plus that were left over from WWII.
-Bill
X-CalBR8 said:
I had college level economics class several years back and my economics teacher did the math of how much the rich pay in proportion to the poor and it was very shocking, well, to me at least. If I recall his numbers correctly, if you took all of the money that the top 1% of the richest citizens pay in taxes for the year, it would only run the country for something like a little over 2 weeks. It is the poor and middle class that produce the taxes that are necessary to run this country, not the wealthy, like many believe, myself included till I took economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, for "progressive taxes" from the IRS Income Tax Returns of 2001:
Top 1% pay 33% of US Income Taxes
Top 5% pay 53% of US Income Taxes
Top 50% pay 96% of US Income Taxes
Bottom 50% pay <4% of US Income Taxes
Now, if you want to include Payroll taxes (which are not supposed to be progressive, but instead pay for specific, wage dependent things like retirement, unemployment, etc.:
SSI, everyone pays ~15% up to ~$85,000 or so
Medicare, everyone pays ~1.5% (no spending cap)
Marginal Income tax rate in California ~10% (over ~100,000/yr)
Cal Unemployment tax proposed for 2004, 10% of $29k limit
Cal Disability income tax 9.9% (for a machinist)
Cal Disability income tax 42% (for a screen door installer)
Arizona Dis. income tax 3.3% (for a machinist)
Other Taxes:
Cal Sales tax is around 8.25% (except food from grocery store)
Cal Property Tax is approximately 1.2% of accessed valuation
Cigarette and Liquor taxes of many times the base cost of the product
X-Cal, what would you have us do differently. Most "rich" people (and others) would prefer the flat income tax rate of 15% that Russia now has, that Iraq (courtesy of the US led government) now has... And don't forget, that when (or, you are very paranoid, if) Mr. and Mrs. Gate die, they will have to give some 50% percent inheritance taxes to the government--unless they both die in 2010 where for one year there are no inheritance taxes.
I would argue not that we are not taxed enough, but we are spending too much.
And, by the way, that for that poor screen door installer, add up the taxes the employer/employee is paying, without any of that progressive state sales/income and federal income tax:
1.5%+10%+15%+42%=~68% tax rate if he only made $29k/year
It is to the politician's benefit to keep us blind to how much they really do collect.
Are you unhappy that the SSI, Unemployment taxes are capped on income? Those are the only major taxes can be raised--unless you want to go from the ~35% US Marginal Tax rate back to those early 1960 marginal tax rates of 70% plus that were left over from WWII.
-Bill
BB said: "I would argue not that we are not taxed enough, but we are spending too much."
I very strongly agree with that statement, but we aren't going to get a smaller government by voting either democrat nor republican. Both have had their time at the wheel and both parties have raised taxes and increased spending. Some worse than others, but they are both lie about wanting a smaller government and less spending. They are nothing but empty campaign promises. Both parties think that they can get votes by making promises to dole out money to the people that vote for them when they get elected and it is working toward the ruination of the country.
This is yet another reason why I've recently decided to start voting libertarian because they seem to be the only major party these days that really do seem sincere about wanting to *drasticly* decrease the size of the federal government. If you really want to see the federal government shrink and your federal income tax burden go down, I would suggest giving the libertarian party a chance.
I very strongly agree with that statement, but we aren't going to get a smaller government by voting either democrat nor republican. Both have had their time at the wheel and both parties have raised taxes and increased spending. Some worse than others, but they are both lie about wanting a smaller government and less spending. They are nothing but empty campaign promises. Both parties think that they can get votes by making promises to dole out money to the people that vote for them when they get elected and it is working toward the ruination of the country.
This is yet another reason why I've recently decided to start voting libertarian because they seem to be the only major party these days that really do seem sincere about wanting to *drasticly* decrease the size of the federal government. If you really want to see the federal government shrink and your federal income tax burden go down, I would suggest giving the libertarian party a chance.
