Downsizing to smaller lights with more lumens.

Hello Everyone,

Its been a while since I've posted here. I've been having some conflicted thoughts on my flashlight strategy. I've always liked to have a big dog around just in case. At first it was a ultrastinger. Then I transitioned to a tk41 and again down to a sunwayman d40.
I finally came to the realization that I never go for anything larger than a 2aa light. Before led lights were around I was crazy about the mini maglite and had a solitare on my keys. The form factor preference hasn't changed for me. Except now I carry a fenix e05 and klarus xt2a for home.

I have a thrunite archer 2a on the way. With 2aa lights going up to 500 lumens now I feel quite confident that I won't need something larger. Even that high of output is for a just in case moment or to show off.

While I've been minimizing stuff I noticed the sc5 can go over 500 lumens. So again I am wondering if I need 2aa lights at all? I tend to agree that they are easier to hold and still generally more powerful unless you have something like a zebralight. Except for my zebra headlamp I haven't had much interest in aa lights. aaa lights seem more than up to the task for most things and easy enough to clip on my keys if I want to take it with me.

I'm just a regular guy that appreciates a good torch. I also haven't felt the need to get into a 18650 light. Although I would be happy with the output and form factor.

Member #159, welcome back - my apologies for the OT but feel free to say hi in the 'oldtimers' thread.

Honestly, I feel that the optimum-sized light for my hands is still 2xAA / 3xCR123 - the SF C3 was one of my very first SureFires back in 2007 and still feel that it is a perfect size for general utility.

Understand what your saying,but with that 18650 you will get much longer runtimes. I think it's a good idea to have multi type cells flashlights around. I am finding this out fast,but I like it.

Glad you posted this,from what I use lights for in general I am going to sell up 75% of my collection.I am more than happy with a compact sized 18650 powered light so my PD32 and PD35 will be up for grabs.I have discovered 14500 cell use due to the generosity of a fellow member who gifted me a pair so for general EDC use a single AA (14500) is like having a new light all over again.The only thing I will not be giving up on is my passion for AAA cell lights.I am not bothered about the run time on AAA format as I have loads of quality Alkaline and plenty of Eneloop type batteries.

I look at it as the right tool for the right job. Some jobs need a tack hammer & others need a sledgehammer. I have flashlights from 100 lumens to 12,000 lumens, and lux from 4,000 to well over 400,000 cdl.

But, I live in two very different places. One is in the densely packed urban Miami area in South Florida where a big lumen light might get me arrested, but a compact light is perfect.

My other abode is on several acres adjoining the million acre White Mountain National Forest in very rural central New Hampshire. We have fire flies brighter than my keychain lights. I want to flood my property with light and throw to the next mountain range.

So, the answer to question, "Which light do I need?" is, "It depends!" LOL

Spork said:

Hello Everyone,

Its been a while since I've posted here. I've been having some conflicted thoughts on my flashlight strategy. I've always liked to have a big dog around just in case. At first it was a ultrastinger. Then I transitioned to a tk41 and again down to a sunwayman d40.
I finally came to the realization that I never go for anything larger than a 2aa light. Before led lights were around I was crazy about the mini maglite and had a solitare on my keys. The form factor preference hasn't changed for me. Except now I carry a fenix e05 and klarus xt2a for home.

I have a thrunite archer 2a on the way. With 2aa lights going up to 500 lumens now I feel quite confident that I won't need something larger. Even that high of output is for a just in case moment or to show off.

While I've been minimizing stuff I noticed the sc5 can go over 500 lumens. So again I am wondering if I need 2aa lights at all? I tend to agree that they are easier to hold and still generally more powerful unless you have something like a zebralight. Except for my zebra headlamp I haven't had much interest in aa lights. aaa lights seem more than up to the task for most things and easy enough to clip on my keys if I want to take it with me.

I'm just a regular guy that appreciates a good torch. I also haven't felt the need to get into a 18650 light. Although I would be happy with the output and form factor.

Click to expand...

This is a great time to have a preference for small flashlights.

I tend to use flashlights like tools. If I had a minute meter on each flashlight the 1aaa would show way more hours than any others. 1aa probably coming in 2nd.

MAD777 said:

I look at it as the right tool for the right job. Some jobs need a tack hammer & others need a sledgehammer. I have flashlights from 100 lumens to 12,000 lumens, and lux from 4,000 to well over 400,000 cdl.

But, I live in two very different places. One is in the densely packed urban Miami area in South Florida where a big lumen light might get me arrested, but a compact light is perfect.

My other abode is on several acres adjoining the million acre White Mountain National Forest in very rural central New Hampshire. We have fire flies brighter than my keychain lights. I want to flood my property with light and throw to the next mountain range.

So, the answer to question, "Which light do I need?" is, "It depends!" LOL

Click to expand...

I love Fire Flies I spent hours one night in a German forest catching them in an open hand I was totally bemused why they seemed not to be bothered at my handling of them.

bykfixer said:

This is a great time to have a preference for small flashlights.

I tend to use flashlights like tools. If I had a minute meter on each flashlight the 1aaa would show way more hours than any others. 1aa probably coming in 2nd.

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AA/AAA for me in that order for my time AAA/AA in work time.

To downsize and get more lumens, was an easy transition for me, as I came from a 3D maglight.

But once one has converted to modern LEDs, there is a tradeoff, smaller size, more lumens means shorter run-times.

But as our friend mcnair55 stated, if your Single AA light can run a 14500 LiIon, it is like having a whole new light.

A 14500 has 3.7*800ma/1000=2.96 watt hours.
A AA NiMH has 1.2V*2500ma/1000=3 watt hours.

So while both batteries have essentially the same capacity, a light running the 14500 will typically run brighter, but for a shorter time.

For example, I have a D25A2 mini, and a D25A.
The single cell D25A when running a 14500, is brighter on max than the D25A2 running on two duraloops. But it will have an overall shorter run time. For me, the shorter run-time is typically inconsequential because I typically run my lights at less than max, and typically only for minutes, maybe only seconds at a time. So a smaller brighter light may well be the way to go.

I very much like the capacity of the 18650 cell, and although I have some lights that are larger than my Convoy S2+ lights, they almost never get any use. The S2+ is my most often used general purpose light. Only recently I've been introduced to the fact that they make a short body, and that there are 18350 cells. I've been playing with carrying short body S2+ lights as an EDC.

Mr Mcnair55's friend had James of 3tronics.co.uk build a S2+ shorty for me with a nichia 219C in it at 3.04 amps with a moonlight and 4 mode driver. It really is great! The 2ma moonlight is lower than the convoy low when it is driven at 1400ma. In part that makes it special!

Fenix E25UE. It is damn near dead on the size and shape of a 2xAA mini Mag. Takes 3 cell types, Alkaline AA, NiMH AA and 14500's. Max output on alkaline and NiMH AA's is 350 lumens. Max with 14500's is 1000 lumens. Light has an XP-L HD emitter. Using Alkalines or NiMH's the light has 4 modes topping out at 350 lumens. Using 14500 cells it has 5 modes the 5th and highest being 1000 lumens. The light has stellar build quality and an outstanding short range beam profile. I use 14500's in mine so I get to use all 5 modes. 1000 lumens out of the XP-L HD emitter is utterly blinding its very impressive. The 350 lumen 4th mode is plenty for most tasks though. Best of all it is only $50...does not come with a clip or holster though but it is still to me the ultimate mini Mag ever...

I quickly have started to get interested in smaller lights now too.

I think after getting my Zebralight SC5w and Olight S1, I realized I hardly use more than the medium setting. Both of these lights are bright enough and throws far enough for me. The SC5w is plenty efficient and I have a bunch of Eneloops around at home. I have now 2 18650 lights and barely use them. The size is a big factor as I only use them if I remember to bring them outside...otherwise I prefer smaller size. I know I'll eventually get one more 18650 Zebralight just to satisfy that desire, but that's about it for 18650 lights for me.

I'm currently more interested in AAA lights now..looking for the best balance of being bright enough vs efficiency. But as long as I hang around CPF, I'll probably get interested in a different type of light in a few weeks anyways... Lol.

Zebralight rules the small high output light category. I know there are smaller ZL's but the new SC600 MkIII is even smaller than the MkII. It is the smallest high output light I have ever had. To me it is so small it is damn near paperweight size. It is capable of 16 or more output settings from sub 1 lumen firefly to 4 different low output settings to 4 medium output settings, 4 max output settings and more. You can program the light to any combination of these settings you wish. Max output is 1335 lumens on H1(the highest high mode)which is utterly blinding H2 is 670 which from there can be set at 360 or 160 lumens. Medium mode has two main out puts and from the second medium output(M2)you can set two more lower settings. Same for low. It is an astonishing light. It only will fit an unprotected flat top 18650 due to the shortened battery tube. This is perfectly okay though as the light has all the necessary protections already built into it. The Sanyo 3500mah 10amp cell ZL sells on their site fits it and works perfectly. The MkIII come in CW, NW and a thrower HI variant. All of them are incredible. I have the HI variant. I have never thought that such a tiny light would ever be capable of such high output and throw range as the HI variant. Tint is a gorgeous near halogen out the HI cannot say enough good things about it.

I agree mostly, I have a Thrunite T10 which is just about perfect for EDC. I actually had the reverse realization though.
The medium mode was usually enough and it runs for a long time, the high mode is very bright but I was using alkalines at first which only gave me a very short runtime on high. The problem came at a corn maze, the stadium lights caused enough glare to make a 15 lumen medium mode to look like 1 lumen. I was trying to light up the path for 2 people and medium was not cutting it, on the other hand I did not want to run it on high and end up with the light going dim in 30 minutes and kill a disposable battery.
At that point I decided that ~200 lumens was enough light but I needed it for a longer time.
I started to EDC an 18650 light for that reason but I am comfortable with switching back to AA now that I have some eneloops that can handle the high mode better.
I am a bit of a runtime hog and I always try to make sure I only use a mode that would last several times as long as I need it. Despite having rechargeable batteries I rarely use a brightness level that is rated to last less than 6-12 hours except for short flashes.
This means that I don't use higher than medium on a zebralight in normal use. It also means that I won't use higher than 22 on an HDS in normal use (18680 battery).
This really limits me when I use smaller batteries, so I just use bigger batteries.

I pretty much agree, for me - 6P / C2 size is great. The new Zebralight S600w MKIII is REALLY nice and smaller than 6P, for use in industry the button on the head is nice versus on the tail.

I'll keep my modded SC6330vn (do I have that model number right...?). I've got a few modded mags that run on 2x32650 that I'll never sell, one is a 1x32650 that I run on 4xAA.

Otherwise for me it's 6P / C2 on 18650, Oveready Wasp (2x18350 or 1x18650), ZL SC600w MKIII, Sunwayman C22Cvn and then into CR123 / 16340 lights (McGizmo's & a MAC EDC).

Looks like I can sell some more lights...

Spork said:

Hello Everyone,

Its been a while since I've posted here. I've been having some conflicted thoughts on my flashlight strategy. I've always liked to have a big dog around just in case. At first it was a ultrastinger. Then I transitioned to a tk41 and again down to a sunwayman d40.
I finally came to the realization that I never go for anything larger than a 2aa light. Before led lights were around I was crazy about the mini maglite and had a solitare on my keys. The form factor preference hasn't changed for me. Except now I carry a fenix e05 and klarus xt2a for home.

I have a thrunite archer 2a on the way. With 2aa lights going up to 500 lumens now I feel quite confident that I won't need something larger. Even that high of output is for a just in case moment or to show off.

While I've been minimizing stuff I noticed the sc5 can go over 500 lumens. So again I am wondering if I need 2aa lights at all? I tend to agree that they are easier to hold and still generally more powerful unless you have something like a zebralight. Except for my zebra headlamp I haven't had much interest in aa lights. aaa lights seem more than up to the task for most things and easy enough to clip on my keys if I want to take it with me.

I'm just a regular guy that appreciates a good torch. I also haven't felt the need to get into a 18650 light. Although I would be happy with the output and form factor.

Click to expand...

I reckon it depends what you want the light for and how you use it.

1AA lights are pretty cool. And yes some can have some impressive headline figures. But the reality is, none of them can maintain the output for very long. Most with really high outputs will step down just after the ANSI FL1 standard. So the high output is really more of a burst mode, than a sustained output.

Equally the runtimes on such lights are very limited at the higher outputs too. A 2AA light will have a significant advantage in both areas.

Last up is your intended use. If you want something as a backup light to run a long time, then big battery lights are still great for this. I have an old incan 6D Maglite with a 200 lumen XP-G drop in. It'll run for days if needed.

Similar to this, if you use your torches outside, then sometimes it's nice to have a little throw too. And small lights just can't achieve this.


Basically, I think it's still valid and there is still a place for a large light in anyone's collection.


But it is true, there are some truly awesome compact lights about at the moment. And maybe now is the time to have a closer look at Li-ion power and 18650's.

bykfixer said:

This is a great time to have a preference for small flashlights.

Click to expand...

Word. The Sunwayman V11R in my pocket cranks out over 500 lumens on a 14500; it wasn't that long ago you couldn't get 500 lumens out of a factory 1x18650 fercryinoutloud. Heck, I've got a few AAA lights that'll do ~300 lumens on a 10440, and I've been around here long enough to remember when 100 lumen out of a Luxeon made us go "WOW!!"

bykfixer said:

I tend to use flashlights like tools. If I had a minute meter on each flashlight the 1aaa would show way more hours than any others. 1aa probably coming in 2nd.

Click to expand...

Same here. Even with the V11R, I tend to whip out the MiX6 on my keychain more often then not. Bright lights scare some folks.

Poppy said:

The single cell D25A when running a 14500, is brighter on max than the D25A2 running on two duraloops. But it will have an overall shorter run time. For me, the shorter run-time is typically inconsequential because I typically run my lights at less than max, and typically only for minutes, maybe only seconds at a time. So a smaller brighter light may well be the way to go.

Click to expand...

Chicken Drumstick said:

1AA lights are pretty cool. And yes some can have some impressive headline figures. But the reality is, none of them can maintain the output for very long. Most with really high outputs will step down just after the ANSI FL1 standard. So the high output is really more of a burst mode, than a sustained output.

Click to expand...

Y'know, I do the same thing, short bursts of light when and where I need it, most of the time. The flip side of the modern high-efficiency lights, tho, is you can also turn 'em down to a lower level and get excellent extended runtimes.

It's counterintuitive, but I tend to use higher modes inside. The light just overcomes the contrast between lit areas and dim shadows. Outside, I prefer to let my eyes adapt, and use only as much light as I need to get by. When walking the dog at night, for instance, I wear a headlamp set to a low brightness, just so cars see us and so I can see the immediate ground by our feet. But I also carry a higher-output thrower to light up anything at a distance, only as needed. In that sort of circumstance, even my pocket-sized lights have runtime to spare, to put it mildly. [/quote]

Poppy said:

I very much like the capacity of the 18650 cell, and although I have some lights that are larger than my Convoy S2+ lights, they almost never get any use. The S2+ is my most often used general purpose light. Only recently I've been introduced to the fact that they make a short body, and that there are 18350 cells. I've been playing with carrying short body S2+ lights as an EDC.

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There's a lot to like about the AA/14500 format; they're compact and easily pocketable, easier to handle than 1xCR123 lights, yet capable of amazing output these days, and in a pinch you can source AA cells *anywhere*. I've standardized my EDC on AA cells for that reason.

That said, I own a number of 18650 lights, and I've tried to EDC them from time to time, but so far they've all been just too big for my pocket. The only ones that have come close so far are the Dereelight CL1H v1, a very compact D26 host; and the ThruNite TN12, although I hate the head-twist mode-switching. I'm looking forward to the Nitecore MH20GT; it's smaller than some of my AA/1450 lights, it just might sway me!

Chicken Drumstick said:

Last up is your intended use. If you want something as a backup light to run a long time, then big battery lights are still great for this. I have an old incan 6D Maglite with a 200 lumen XP-G drop in. It'll run for days if needed.

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I'm with ya there: 4D Maglight with Malkoff drop-in and ESD NiMH cells. Might not run for "days" continuously, but I've got lanterns for that.

Chicken Drumstick said:

Similar to this, if you use your torches outside, then sometimes it's nice to have a little throw too. And small lights just can't achieve this.


Basically, I think it's still valid and there is still a place for a large light in anyone's collection.

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I agree. Sometime you just need to "reach out an torch someone."

Try the Olight S1 Baton. Very small light, takes RCR123 rechargeables, magnetic tail stand, great UI, 500 lumens peak, usable moonlight. The only flaw is it doesn't have a good keychain attachment.

Kestrel said:

Member #159, welcome back

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mcnair55 said:

Glad you posted this,from what I use lights for in general I am going to sell up 75% of my collection.

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Thanks. However I don't have much wisdom to offer for being such a early member except to caution others that buying torches can get a little out of hand. Of course you need a backup light, and a backup of the backup ... and well you see how this starts. My reason for starting this thread was to help me figure out a bit more about my usage so I no longer invest chunks of money on lights that are not used.

The aa format would be incredibly useful for edc but as I've mentioned earlier I simply need no more than an aaa light on my key ring. I still have a original arc aaa which was enough then and now the lumen output of similar lights is incredible. I also had a original cmg infinity and I realized then that aa lights were too big for a keychain. Could work well with a clip in your pocket though.

As for the 14500 format. If I were to start using them I would also have no reason to avoid 18650's. Again I know they are quite safe but they do require some extra care. I know they have protected cells but I would be worried about someone leaving it on by accident or I would have ocd checking battery voltage all the time.

I would say the main reason I do need a good light is to monitor the woods behind my house. I live in a city but I'm in the back of a sub division with a small but dense wooded area behind us. I have a fenced yard but I like to watch over the dogs during their night time bathroom breaks. Even in broad daylight you can't see very far through it so massive lumens is not always better. My Wife also had rude comments from a neighbor one night while responsibly watching over the dogs with a light. So I like to keep it down as much as possible and not aim into their yard.

I could see a bigger light with more throw being useful if I literally needed it to be a searchlight. Like trying to find a pet etc. My archer v3 came in today. I'm going out tonight with my d40 as well so I can figure out if I will be content having a 2aa light for max size. If not maybe I would really be better having something like a new tk41 or a 18650 light for one of these special situations.

Spork said:

<SNIP>

As for the 14500 format. If I were to start using them I would also have no reason to avoid 18650's. Again I know they are quite safe but they do require some extra care. I know they have protected cells but I would be worried about someone leaving it on by accident or I would have ocd checking battery voltage all the time.

I would say the main reason I do need a good light is to monitor the woods behind my house. I live in a city but I'm in the back of a sub division with a small but dense wooded area behind us. I have a fenced yard but I like to watch over the dogs during their night time bathroom breaks. Even in broad daylight you can't see very far through it so massive lumens is not always better. My Wife also had rude comments from a neighbor one night while responsibly watching over the dogs with a light. So I like to keep it down as much as possible and not aim into their yard.

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Spork,
You might find reading through the first few pages of TEEJ's excellent discussion of lumens and CD/ Lux helpful in selecting the right light.

you might find a light with a tight beam profile better for piercing into a dark wooded area than a broader, more floody beam, where much of the light may be reflected back into your eyes, before it gets deeper into the woods where your dogs may be.

It seems to me that you need two lights. A small edc, AAA or smaller, and a stronger light for looking into the woods. It doesn't matter what size light you get for that, (as long as it will fit in the kitchen drawer) nor what size battery, provided it can supply sufficient power.

I really like light, compact AA twisty lights for a good balance of compromises, but for regular use 18650 has won me over.
CR123 lights were always frustrating to me between the cost, and format, and limited capacity.
They were great at the time for what they could do but not a great balance imo.
RCR123 were an improvement but complicated things more by having half the capacity of CR123 and pretty much requiring spares and backup CR123 as well.

With 18650 and some of the really compact lights that use them I feel like I've found the good balance with hardly any compromises that I've been looking for.
Carrying a light with only 2-3x the volume of a compact AA twisty, yet having the battery capacity of 4 CR123, and rechargeable at that works really well for me as smaller lights with more lumens goes.
I'm looking forward to even better emitters and even better 18650 capacities.
Got H600w Mk II (pocket) and H602w Mk II (head), next light is almost certainly an H600Fc Mk III.