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Thread: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required!

  1. #1

    Default Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required!

    Are there other 2x18650 lights than can pump out 1,000 lumen OTF, with true flat regulation and constant output, for over an hour, without the need for thermal step down even when without active cooling, like the Nitecore EC4 here?
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-1050Lm-XM-L2)

    Why don't manufacturers make more lights like this instead?
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    How often does anyone really need 1000 lumens for an hour. Personally I view it as a compromise in some cases.

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    Flashaholic* CelticCross74's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    the tech to pump 1000 lumens OTF for an hour or more is fairly new. You would need to get a really overpowered light like 2000+ lumens where 1000 lumens would be considered medium mode there you will find very long run time and flat regulation. My ET MX25L2 for example is a 2200 max lumen light. Ansi run time at max output is 1.3 hours in other words you would get roughly a half an hour of full power before it drops off. The next step down is 1071 lumens for 3.5 hours Ansi rated meaning you would get oh roughly a bit over an hour and a half at that output. Big damn light though.

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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    The cool white Malkoff XM-L2 Hound Dog outputs 1000 lumens for about 53 minutes, from a pair of 18500s. The run time from two 3100 mAh 18650s is approximately 110 minutes. It runs at a flat 90 percent of the initial output for the entire time.

    The current Malkoff V5 Wildcat outputs approximately 1400 lumens for an hour, then begins a slow decline reaching 10% after 110 minutes.

    The previous generation of the Wildcat outputs 1150 lumens continuously for almost 90 minutes.

    The bored Elzetta Charlie with AVS head will output 900 lumens continuously for a bit over 65 minutes....from two 1500 mAh 18500 cells.

    Most light manufacturers would rather use thermal step-downs in place of an appropriate seat sinking design with adequate mass. It doesn't require special pixie dust to accomplish, just solid engineering.

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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    This isn't an 18650 light. But a Fenix PD40 will produce 1000 lumens for around an hour and a half from a 26650. If one 26650 can do this, there is no reason why two high capacity 18650s couldn't.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticCross74 View Post
    The next step down is 1071 lumens for 3.5 hours Ansi rated meaning you would get oh roughly a bit over an hour and a half at that output.
    I just wanted to point out that ANSI FL1 does not mean this at all. The FL1 standard:

    Quote Originally Posted by ANSI FL1
    Light Output

    Total lumens of output, measured in an integrating sphere after the light has been on for 30-120 seconds. 30 seconds gives a little time for the LED to get hot and the battery voltage to sag which will usually result in a lower output number.
    Runtime

    The amount of continuous runtime (in minutes) until the light output drops to 10% of its original value (measured 30 seconds after turning the light on).

    So the claimed output is not the constant output for the claimed runtime.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Drumstick View Post
    I just wanted to point out that ANSI FL1 does not mean this at all. The FL1 standard:




    So the claimed output is not the constant output for the claimed runtime.
    I think CC is aware of that, hence his rough estimate of 1.5 hours vs the specified ANSI runtime of 3.5 hours. He's talking about the flat portion of the runtime curve, before it starts to decline.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    The cool white Malkoff XM-L2 Hound Dog outputs 1000 lumens for about 53 minutes, from a pair of 18500s. The run time from two 3100 mAh 18650s is approximately 110 minutes. It runs at a flat 90 percent of the initial output for the entire time.

    The current Malkoff V5 Wildcat outputs approximately 1400 lumens for an hour, then begins a slow decline reaching 10% after 110 minutes.

    The previous generation of the Wildcat outputs 1150 lumens continuously for almost 90 minutes.

    The bored Elzetta Charlie with AVS head will output 900 lumens continuously for a bit over 65 minutes....from two 1500 mAh 18500 cells.

    Most light manufacturers would rather use thermal step-downs in place of an appropriate seat sinking design with adequate mass. It doesn't require special pixie dust to accomplish, just solid engineering.
    Thanks, Grizzman. Didn't know they performed this well in runtime.
    I agree with your last comment. I also think that heat, while a valid reason for stepping down the output, can also be a convenient pretext to hide the fact that not the most efficient or advanced circuitry has been used.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    By rough estimation to produce constant 1K lumen beam you need a head at least of a TN32 size with copper internals. Are you ready to EDC that piece of artillery?

    Even R40 Seeker, having rather massive construction, has to step down after 30 minutes at 1K lm in order not to fry itself.
    Last edited by vadimax; 04-11-2016 at 02:40 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    This isn't an 18650 light. But a Fenix PD40 will produce 1000 lumens for around an hour and a half from a 26650. If one 26650 can do this, there is no reason why two high capacity 18650s couldn't.
    I read your discussion regarding the PD40's runtime on an 18650. Very impressive. The MT-G2 is quite efficient then. Does the PD40 boost driver efficiency beat the last and current generations of 18650 Zebralights?
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by Woods Walker View Post
    How often does anyone really need 1000 lumens for an hour. Personally I view it as a compromise in some cases.
    But too often specified as an ANSI measurements and used as a selling point.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    By rough estimation to produce constant 1K lumen beam you need a head at least of a TN32 size with copper internals. Are you ready to EDC that piece of artillery?

    Even R40 Seeker, having rather massive construction, has to step down after 30 minutes at 1K lm in order not to fry itself.
    The Nitecore EC4 I linked to can do it, and it has a much smaller head. But still not an EDC for the average joe. Certainly can be an EDC for some professions though.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    The Nitecore EC4 I linked to can do it, and it has a much smaller head. But still not an EDC for the average joe. Certainly can be an EDC for some professions though.
    Well, EC4 looks rather ugly personally for me when design aesthetics was denied for the sake of heat dissipation. And, perhaps, I will repeat some comments regarding 1K lm beams: in some 95% of applications it is an excellent way to blind yourself with reflections

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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Okay, I'm ignorant so bear with me. What's wrong with the EC4? I have both the EC4 and the EC4S and I'm not being blinded by either light when outside and the light is on turbo setting.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    I think CC is aware of that, hence his rough estimate of 1.5 hours vs the specified ANSI runtime of 3.5 hours. He's talking about the flat portion of the runtime curve, before it starts to decline.
    Unless you have a chart plotting this, there is noway to know based on ANSI FL1 claims. Maybe they have a runtime chart showing this though.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    But too often specified as an ANSI measurements and used as a selling point.
    I know you replied to me earlier. But I have never seen an ANSI claim of 1000 lumen for an hour. That just isn't how the FL1 standard works.


    To legally claim ANSI FL1 you only need your torch to make 1000 lumens OTF from 30sec to 120 sec.

    So you could start off at 600 lumens and ramp up, so that at 30sec it's a 1000 lumen. Then maintain this for another 90 sec, then ramp down, even as low as 200 lumens (well 101 lumens would count as ok). Keep it at this level for ages, then drop down to 10% the initial output @ 30sec, which is 100 lumens.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    Thanks, Grizzman. Didn't know they performed this well in runtime.
    I agree with your last comment. I also think that heat, while a valid reason for stepping down the output, can also be a convenient pretext to hide the fact that not the most efficient or advanced circuitry has been used.
    It's not really about being efficient or advanced circuitry.

    There are 3 main types of driver.

    Buck. This is when the battery voltage is higher than the forward voltage (vf) of the LED. The driver 'bucks' the voltage down. This can produce heat and there is an argument over how efficient these can be. Most Cree leds are 3.xv as a vf. So 8.4v from 2S Li-ion needs quite a bucking. The good thing is, it is easy to maintain the required voltage and the load on each cell is reduced. Many lights using this power source, despite the ops claim will be able to offer flat regulation of around 1000 lumens OTF. The game changer has been the inclusion of Turbo modes which are higher, and the next mode down being lower. Some might claim you got more for less when not having a turbo mode as you might have a higher sustained output.


    Linear. This is the most common driver in 1xLi-ion lights. While the battery voltage is close/slightly above the vf of the LED, it will give you a regulated output. The harder you drive the led (more amps), the more sag you get from the battery. So the less time in a regulated output. These drivers are normally quite efficient. But can only offer regulation under certain conditions. Once the battery voltage drops below 'x' point, that's no, more regulation for that output mode. These are fully battery dependant. The better the battery (in performance not mAh) the better it will perform. Some of these lights have a 'direct drive' mode. Which will essentially give you all the power the battery can muster without restricting the current. You loose the regulation, but gain in output.


    Boost. These drivers work when the battery voltage is below that of the LED. They use additional amps to boost the voltage higher to make the LED operate. These are commonly found in AA or 2AA or even CR123a lights. As those batteries have a lower voltage than the LED. These can be efficient too, but can be hard on batteries and might require excessive amp draws from the batteries to be able to get the amps and volts to the emitter.


    Some lights like the Zebralights use a combi drive that can buck or boost. Which is why they generally get good runtimes and regulation. The trade off is cost and that they are probably a bit hard on the batteries.


    In 2 x Li-ion you won't typically find a boost driver, because at the lowest shut off voltage for a Li-ion, you'd still be way above what is needed for most LED's (not all, but the common small Cree LEDs).
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    But too often specified as an ANSI measurements and used as a selling point.
    I think educated consumers especially those here know for exmple a 1x 18650 low mass headlamp won't do 1000 lumens for an hour same applies to a low mass flashlight given current technology. The step down be it timed or thermal is a compromise IMHO. In fact it's hardly ever hidden. They call it burst or turbo modes. Some even brag about good thermo regulation tech in the description. If people don't want to spend the 13 seconds to read that is on them. There is a notable exception of Armytek who keeps saying constant brightness and then must field complaints from those who are expecting this. But IMO that bad marketing is the exception not the normal. The Information is within the product description with most makers or at last most that I have seen. But then again people tend not to spend enough time reviewing gear before purchase aka don't read the smaller text.
    Last edited by Woods Walker; 04-11-2016 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Auto correct sucks

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    If i was to want your asks scs, i would be looking at the Fenix tk35 lights, the UE as one example spec

    tk35UE 2015

    • Utilizes Cree XHP 50 LED with a lifespan of 50,000 hours
    • Ground-breaking quad core Cree XHP 50 LED delivers twice the light output of the industry's brightest single-die LED
    • Modes of Operation
      • Turbo: 2000 Lumens (1 hr. 15 min.)
      • High: 1050 Lumens (3 hrs. 10 min.)
      • Mid: 380 Lumens (9 hrs. 15 min.)
      • Low: 120 Lumens (33 hrs.)
      • Eco: 20 Lumens (160 hrs.)
      • Strobe: 2000 Lumens
      • SOS: 380 Lumens

    High mode of around 1000lm seems to hit the nail on the head, there is the very nice MT-G2 version also.............


    Now as i dont own the light, i can not say if it does step down from high.............maybe it does................Owners maybe able to answer that one.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticCross74 View Post
    the tech to pump 1000 lumens OTF for an hour or more is fairly new. You would need to get a really overpowered light like 2000+ lumens where 1000 lumens would be considered medium mode there you will find very long run time and flat regulation. My ET MX25L2 for example is a 2200 max lumen light. Ansi run time at max output is 1.3 hours in other words you would get roughly a half an hour of full power before it drops off. The next step down is 1071 lumens for 3.5 hours Ansi rated meaning you would get oh roughly a bit over an hour and a half at that output. Big damn light though.
    This was my thinking exactly when I bought my Klarus G30.

    Bob

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* Crazyeddiethefirst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Hey Mark, I have the Fenix TK35UE and the comparable Nitecore EC4SW, as well as the EC4 & EC4S(what can I say-the battery compartment of these 2 X 18650 lights just fits perfect in my hand with or without gloves. When doing night climbs in the local mountains, I have the raw power to see as far as my eyes can distinguish-having said that, I rarely "need" turbo for more than 2 minutes, and so far have never had need for 60 minutes of turbo so I don't know if it steps down or not. I had a titanium knee installed and have not gotten back to hiking or climbing yet. I'll see if I can set up a test run to find out-last night I ran a two light test in the living room and believe my significant other is a little perturbed with me still...since I have 4 or 5 new lights incoming it may be in my best interest to stay off the radar this week....

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Crazy Eddie -

    How does the throw on the TK35 compare to the EC4S?

    I have an EC4S and like it rather a lot, but was curious if there were a similar light with perhaps a throwier reflector.

    If this would require any SO-unsettlement, please do not answer.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Chicken Drumstick, thank-you for your above effort. Nicely done.

    I'm not smarter but I am better educated.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by Woods Walker View Post
    ...There is a notable exception of Armytek who keeps saying constant brightness and then must field complaints from those who are expecting this. But IMO that bad marketing is the exception not the normal...
    Fenix does the same. They advertise "Digitally regulated output to maintain constant brightness."
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* Crazyeddiethefirst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by jal View Post
    Crazy Eddie -

    How does the throw on the TK35 compare to the EC4S?

    I have an EC4S and like it rather a lot, but was curious if there were a similar light with perhaps a throwier reflector.

    If this would require any SO-unsettlement, please do not answer.
    There is no question the Fenix has the larger reflector, but I am not sure it actually translates into a usable gain. To answer the question adequately I need to do some photos to make a real determination. My off the cuff answer is that no the tk35 does not have more throw, but now I want to see what beamshots show. Like Ven says "Pictures or it never happened". Might take a day or two but I will see what I can do....

  26. #26

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Drumstick View Post
    ...Unless you have a chart plotting this, there is no way to know based on ANSI FL1 claims. Maybe they have a runtime chart showing this though...

    ...To legally claim ANSI FL1 you only need your torch to make 1000 lumens OTF from 30sec to 120 sec. So you could start off at 600 lumens and ramp up, so that at 30sec it's a 1000 lumen. Then maintain this for another 90 sec, then ramp down, even as low as 200 lumens (well 101 lumens would count as ok). Keep it at this level for ages, then drop down to 10% the initial output @ 30sec, which is 100 lumens....

    There are 3 main types of driver....
    CC has experience with ET lights, so he was basing his projection on that, but I understood what you're talking about. I'm familiar with the ANSI test criteria and basics of the different types of drivers as well. Thanks.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Thanks, ven. I'm gonna have to reject the TK35 based purely on looks. :P I think you might be right about the HIGH mode. There are some complains about insufficient grip.
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Speaking of the PD40, here's a review on the German forum with runtime plots.

    http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/th...1/#post-628376
    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Imalent, Armytek, Gearbest, and Banggood are still in business for the same reason Logan Paul is still making money.
    Imalent, Failure Imminent.

  30. #30

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    Default Re: Too much to ask for? 1000 lumen OTF, FLAT! No timed or thermal step down required

    Are you actually looking for a light that does 1000 lumens for an hour, or was it a rhetorical question?

    If this is a real light search, there are other details that need to be known. The Hound Dog and Wildcat both meet this one specification, but they're hardly interchangeable.

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