Zebralight SC600 Mk111 Cool White is a little warm.

I just got the Zebralight SC600 Mk111 after sourcing batteries from Illumination Supply. It's pretty amazing but... I ordered the "cool white" version and it seems much warmer than my old SC 600 Cool White. Maybe I got a "neutral white" by mistake. I can't see any designation on the box or the light to indicate the model version. Is there any way to ascertain whether this is actually the "cool white"

witness said:

I just got the Zebralight SC600 Mk111 after sourcing batteries from Illumination. It's pretty amazing but... I ordered the "cool white" version and it seems much warmer than my old SC 600 Cool White. Maybe I got a "neutral white" by mistake. I can't see any designation on the box or the light to indicate the model version. Is there any way to ascertain whether this is actually the "cool white"

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I'm guessing the mailing label is covering the product sticker on the front. Look real close and you should be able to see thru it. SC600 MK III for the one you ordered; SC600w III if you accidentally got the neutral white. Those markings are also on the light itself.

I guess it's possible the actual LED got mixed up, but I doubt it. Probably just a warmer than the CW lights you're used to.

I believe the neutral version has a "w" on the light itself while the cool white version doesn't. Also the cool white used is warmer and a little higher cri, 5700k vs the typical 6300-6500k range for most cool white.

Thanx guys.
I guess I got the right one. That means I get the amazing top end power AND the tint is also very nice. Awesome!!!:twothumbs

witness said:

Thanx guys.
I guess I got the right one. That means I get the amazing top end power AND the tint is also very nice. Awesome!!!:twothumbs

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It's a winner! I had a hard time trying to decide between the cool and neutral white; both are nice.

It was noted in two reviews that ZL's 'cool white' tends to be a bit warmer than that of other manufacturers...

wolfgaze said:

It was noted in two reviews that ZL's 'cool white' tends to be a bit warmer than that of other manufacturers...

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Usually that 6500K blue trash. The 5700K Zebralight uses takes the edge off a bit.

markr6 said:

Usually that 6500K blue trash. The 5700K Zebralight uses takes the edge off a bit.

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I agree. I quite like the tint of the MK111. The light in general is a pretty big step up from my original SC600.

markr6 said:

Usually that 6500K blue trash.

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I wish you would just tell us if you like it or not! :laughing:

snowlover91 said:

I believe the neutral version has a "w" on the light itself while the cool white version doesn't. Also the cool white used is warmer and a little higher cri, 5700k vs the typical 6300-6500k range for most cool white.

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My SC600 Mk3 is 'cool white' but at 5700 kelvin it is a very nice tint. Other 'cool white' have a higher temperature of 6000 plus degrees.

sidecross said:

My SC600 Mk3 is 'cool white' but at 5700 kelvin it is a very nice tint. Other 'cool white' have a higher temperature of 6000 plus degrees.

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Yes, that's right.. I measured mine (CW MKIII) and it was right at 5700K. All was good except the issue with a Yellow Dot right in the center of the beam, but that one is RMA back to Zebra as we speak, so we will see what the tint is on the replacement unit that is yet to arrive.

I agree that the CW at 5700 is very nice. I do not like the current craze here on CPF for "warm" lights. I use mine outdoors for 'mission critical' work and my eye and brain picks up contrast much better with CW lamps. To me, the warm lights tend to fuzz over the contrast of the scene as my brain will not process as much information as quickly vrs a blue or CW tint. This subject has been studied in animals. It is the reason that cats see (perceive) in black and white when they hunt at night. Your (human) peripheral vision is also much less color sensitive and is keyed to your brain processing in terms of contrast, not in terms of accurate color rendition.

I always get a chuckle when I read these posts from "tint fanatics".. what are they doing with flashlights anyway? Do they take their high dollar original oil paintings out to the woods on a moonless night and admire the art work with their cherished "warm" LED?

PeterRamish said:

... All was good except the issue with a Yellow Dot right in the center of the beam, but that one is RMA back to Zebra as we speak, so we will see what the tint is on the replacement unit that is yet to arrive.
...

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My SC63w also has a yellowish patch in the center of the hotspot. I suspect this is just how XHP35 beams look, and as such it is not a defect.

Probably all SC600 IIIs and SC63s have it. Very likely your replacement will be the same.

PeterRamish said:

What are they doing with flashlights anyway? Do they take their high dollar original oil paintings out to the woods on a moonless night and admire the art work with their cherished "warm" LED?

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How did you know?!!

I thought that was a secret.

PeterRamish said:

Yes, that's right.. I measured mine (CW MKIII) and it was right at 5700K. All was good except the issue with a Yellow Dot right in the center of the beam, but that one is RMA back to Zebra as we speak, so we will see what the tint is on the replacement unit that is yet to arrive.

I agree that the CW at 5700 is very nice. I do not like the current craze here on CPF for "warm" lights. I use mine outdoors for 'mission critical' work and my eye and brain picks up contrast much better with CW lamps. To me, the warm lights tend to fuzz over the contrast of the scene as my brain will not process as much information as quickly vrs a blue or CW tint. This subject has been studied in animals. It is the reason that cats see (perceive) in black and white when they hunt at night. Your (human) peripheral vision is also much less color sensitive and is keyed to your brain processing in terms of contrast, not in terms of accurate color rendition.

I always get a chuckle when I read these posts from "tint fanatics".. what are they doing with flashlights anyway? Do they take their high dollar original oil paintings out to the woods on a moonless night and admire the art work with their cherished "warm" LED?

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Well said,and much better than I could have.
Anyways,there is so much chat about this light,and I just may have to buy one.
P

PeterRamish said:

Yes, that's right.. I measured mine (CW MKIII) and it was right at 5700K. All was good except the issue with a Yellow Dot right in the center of the beam, but that one is RMA back to Zebra as we speak, so we will see what the tint is on the replacement unit that is yet to arrive.

I agree that the CW at 5700 is very nice. I do not like the current craze here on CPF for "warm" lights. I use mine outdoors for 'mission critical' work and my eye and brain picks up contrast much better with CW lamps. To me, the warm lights tend to fuzz over the contrast of the scene as my brain will not process as much information as quickly vrs a blue or CW tint. This subject has been studied in animals. It is the reason that cats see (perceive) in black and white when they hunt at night. Your (human) peripheral vision is also much less color sensitive and is keyed to your brain processing in terms of contrast, not in terms of accurate color rendition.

I always get a chuckle when I read these posts from "tint fanatics".. what are they doing with flashlights anyway? Do they take their high dollar original oil paintings out to the woods on a moonless night and admire the art work with their cherished "warm" LED?

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I think the biggest craze is neutral tint, 4000k-5000k. I personally hate cool white because it washes out colors and objects tend to be harder to differentiate. While I like warm tint for certain things, it too can wash out colors, so the majority of the time I use neutral.

Fireclaw18 said:

My SC63w also has a yellowish patch in the center of the hotspot. I suspect this is just how XHP35 beams look, and as such it is not a defect.

Probably all SC600 IIIs and SC63s have it. Very likely your replacement will be the same.

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OK,.. I said I would report back/... Zebralight replaced my Yellow Do-nut with a very nice emitter sample that they found in the "binning" Five Gold Stars to Zebralight ! They are a responsible and reliable company that stands behind their product.. I can recommend purchases from them without hesitation. They made good on a bad sample that crept into the supply chain.

Let discuss a little about how this sample wound up in the production Zebra MKIII that I was shipped. The question "How can this happen?" is a valid one.

I am going to dodge that question here by just giving you a reading list that explains it all. (homework my teachers used to call it.. :thinking

What if I told you the Yellow Dot is in some samples of MKIII CW because:
"No LED manufacturer can produce uniform color points in their white LEDs; rather, they produce batches of LEDs with varying distributions of color and flux to create inventory based on the results of the production."

If you think I just made that sentence up, then think again. It is Crees own words from the following: Cree Document : LED Color Mixing: Basics and Background: CREE Document:CLD-AP38 REV 1

So Here's the reading List:

1.) Essential reading and you can find it (the PDF) HERE or HERE
2.) Other Essential reading on all this is:
and, of course:

3.) Essential Reading: http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Document-Library
...the Specific Fact Sheets and Product Pages for many Cree Lamps you find in your lights.

Kudos to ZL for replacing the light with a great sample, glad they took good care of you! Their customer service is really good and although I've never had to use it I've heard good reports! Did they hand pick the light they sent you as a replacement? What is the tint like?

The 5700k xhp-35 used in the new Zebralights is more of a neutral than a cool white. I'd say anything ranging from 4k to 6k could be considered rather neutral if your eyes are white balanced to it. 5700k is also very close to what midday sunlight is as well, although the coloring rendering leaves a lot to be desired. I'd totally love to have a nice 5700k high output light, but I won't be keeping my 5700k Zebralight because it has a slight green/purple tint deviation-- that's totally a tint lottery issue though, and not a kelvin issue. Jaxman's E2 satisfies my hunger for a sunlight mimicker as well.

PeterRamish said:

So Here's the reading List:

<snip>

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Thanks for the links! I chuckled a little as I read your post. It sounds you like may have found the Cree sausage-making factory. Oh man, please don't tell us what happens there!

Glad to hear ZL took care of you.

I am a fan of high CRI, but it's not the stuff I read that converted me. I became a fan when I tried out a couple of inexpensive Nichia 219B 1xAAA flashlights.

At a BLF modding party, another forum member and I carefully compared cool-white, neutral-white, and high-CRI emitters. It is easy to do. All you have to do is find some lightly colored oak furniture or flooring, shine your flashlights on it, and do some A/B comparisons. There is no right or wrong. Just decide whether you can see any difference, and, if so, determine which emitter you prefer.

Next, shine your flashlights as you flip through the pages of a magazine that has a lot of color photos. Make a critical comparison of skin tones, reds, greens, tans, and browns, along with all the other colors. Can you see a difference?

In my case, I could. In fact, it was quite obvious. Even my neutral-white ZebraLight SC62w looked pale compared to the illumination of the 5000K CCT, 92 CRI (Ra) Nichia 219B emitter in my BLF-348. And the cool-white tint from the Cree XM-L2 in my ThorFire C8 made color look awful.

When I use a flashlight to get a job done, I don't really worry about tint and CRI. Changing a tire is changing a tire.

Using a flashlight for recreation is another thing entirely. When I go camping or hiking, I'm in it for the pleasure. A lot of the time I won't really pay attention to color and CRI. When I do, however, the richer reds, browns, and greens revealed by my high-CRI flashlight enhance the fun.

I need to warn you about this. We all know that ignorance is bliss. For less than $10 USD, you could get the Nichia-based Astrolux A01, and do some of these tests yourself. But you may want to pass. If you are like me, you probably have used flashlights for decades without ever noticing the tint at all. Maybe you should keep it that way! If you have a stable full of cool-white flashlights that you are happy with, you may be better off never getting a Nichia emitter.

That way, you won't know what you are missing!

KeepingItLight said:

Next, shine your flashlights as you flip through the pages of a magazine that has a lot of color photos. Make a critical comparison of skin tones, reds, greens, tans, and browns, along with all the other colors. Can you see a difference?

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Yes, no question about it, color appraisal is a very human and personal experience.

Your example above is a trip down memory lane for me. My degrees are in chemistry and one of my first 'real jobs' out of college (OK I'll admit it, 50 years ago !!) was to supervise the C-3 color chemistry line at a photography lab that processed film for the professional trade.

The tolerances were very tight and we used standardized lab grade pre-exposed test strips from Eastman's lab. At that time Kodak provided our company with calibrated test gear to detect if our chemistry was within specs.

BUT, and here is the real point: Notwithstanding that technically our chemistry process was held spot on, the output of test prints (actual images from the pro photographers that used our service) was submitted to a panel of real humans.

That panel was composed of a very unique group that had demonstrated excellent skills in human eye-ball color appraisals. In other words they were doing what you said, flipping through color printed images and determining if it "looked good" (whatever that phrase might mean). Upon a consensus of that group of wine tasters various subtractive color filters (cyan, magenta yellow) were inserted into the printing apparatus to "adjust" the output of the entire system. This process of 'examine / adjust' went on endlessly every day, day in and day out. It was uniquely "human" in nature and never could be automated, as much as us "chemists" wanted that to happen !

In the reading list in my previous post there are discussions about the the human eye as the source of photopic response, and its ability to attain amazing precision in transferring very exact data to the brain. That is the problem. The brain "processes" that information and your "human senses" give you very "human" feelings about it. Just like the panel of wine-tasters I worked with years ago, the question became, not "is it technically right", but "how does it look to a human, is it pleasing.."

My only hope here in these posts, is to help many readers here at CPF to understand that "CFI" and related attempts to correlate technically derived data points with human color perception is a concept that has never proven to be attainable. Cree hasn't seemed to get there. And in my 50 years of being around "color" I have never seen anyone make it work. So before you "read the specs" on various emitters and say "this one is better than that one".. You would be well advised to do what you say. Flip through the pages of images in a magazine under various sources under test.

And that brings me to my next subject (which we will defer to another thread and another time..) and that is "investigator bias in engineering" .

So to quote from one of the pages of the essential reading list comes this succinct phrase: "Evaluate LED systems in person and, if possible, on-site when color fidelity or color appearance are important issues... "