I was WARNED! 18650 PROTECTED Cells vs. NON-PROTECTED Cells.

Hi all,

I admit to be VERY confused regarding (new to me) the use of 18650 Cells. Long story short : I own two KLARUS Flashlights. An XT-11 and a XT2C both of which will support either a single 18650 or two CR123's. I also recently purchased a NITECORE D-4 Charger to recharge said 18650's. The Klarus Flashlights each came with a single PROTECTED 18650. Now.....I was told here by a member of CPF that my KLARUS lights would perform better using a UNPROTECTED 18650 Cells (I'm not sure I understand why). At any rate, I started researching and learned of the LG CHEM MJ1 UNPROTECTED 18650 Cells (which are said to be a very good and cost effective cells). So.....I contacted "Customer Service/Information Department" of this popular Battery maker of 18650's and posed the question regarding using "Protected vs. NON-protected" 18650's and I was told the following.....(in a Nut shell) :


No, using UN-protected Cells is NOT better than PROTECTED Cells. You CAN use UN-protected Cells IF your Flashlight will run Flat Top short cells.


The remainder of the Email from Customer Service included examples (in BOLD PRINT RED) of WARNINGS (from Battery makers) about using UNPROTECTED 18650 and also
a photograph of the new (soon to be released) CAUTION label being printed on future LG CHEM 18650 Batteries.

I'm a bit confused since this (on-line) store sells PROTECTED 18650's as well as the aforementioned LG CHEM MJ1 UNPROTECTED Cells.

Bottom line, can I SAFELY use UNPROTECTED 18650 Cells with my KLARUS Flashlight and, if so, (aside from cost) what is the advantage of using a UNPROTECTED Cell ?


Thanks so much for your thoughts/help/advice.


SixCats! in Maine

Unprotected batteries are available in flat top as well as button, so that's a non-issue
The only way an unprotected cell would make your light brighter is due to the fact that most unprotected cells can supply greater amperage.
Safe use is highly dependent on the operator. In a flashlight like the one you have, I'd personally stick with a protected cell. The brightness increase would likely not be worth the added expense and trouble. If you do decide to use unprotected, your concerns should be max charge voltage and voltage at which to charge again.
Unprotected cells are most often used in lights that require lots and lots of amps, such as the OLight X7.

Battery cell makers don't make unprotected cells for us, the consumers, to use. They make them for other companies (like Dell or Craftsman) to use in battery packs where other protection is used.

You can obtain and use them, but know that they have added risk has they have no over discharge, over charge, or other protections. If you don't manage these things yourself (with quality chargers, lights, and multimeter), you can have a big issue. (Those hover board fires... overcharging unprotected batteries.)

The advantage to unprotected is that there is no protection circuit to stop the cell from performing as strongly as it is capable. And the cell is cheaper, a little shorter, and there's one less thing to fail.

You can use either kind with your Klarus lights. The fact that they came with protected tells me that Klarus thinks you can get sufficient power from protected and don't need to go unprotected. You can probably go unprotected and get a few more lumens, but if you're asking questions about it, I'd recommend being safe with protected.

If you go unprotected use a multimeter and know when the batteries get down to 3.0v. Keep them in the 3.0 to 4.2V range to be safe.

Thank you both. VERY helpful!

Regards,
SixCats!

The biggest risk with unprotected is if you overcharge or overdischarge the battery. Good quality chargers and/or flashlights should have built in protections against these.

As others have said, the time to use unprotected cells would be when a flashlight demands as much performance from the battery as possible to get the highest amount of brightness possible. Looking at your two lights, I don't see a reason to go unprotected.

Hi Twiste,

I think my two Klarus lights produce a pretty darn good amount of "Tactical" light (always comes on HIGH). I must say, I am curious to know HOW much brighter a UN-protected cell would perform vs. Protected Cell. That being said, for the time being, I'm just going to stick (albeit more expensive) Protected Cells. As was pointed out by Bdm (and I must confess, I thought the same thing) if Klarus included a PROTECTED cell with their light, there must be a good reason!

P.S. I'm LOVING my new KLARUS XT2C ! It is now my EDC (Tactical) Light.

SixCats!

Usually the manufacturer specifies on the product page whether or not the light needs an unprotected cell for max output or not. Examples would be the Olight X7, or any of Vinh's modified lights. Zebralight restricts the max cell length on a lot of their newer lights so they can only run unprotected flat-top cells. Reason there is because Zebralights use very strict regulation that demand a lot out of batteries when they're at lower capacities.

Klarus lights use a driver with some form of regulation, and not a direct-drive circuitry. If it was direct drive, the light would be as bright as the battery could push. Examples of that would be Vinh's lights, or something like a BLF A6.

SixCats! said:

...I must say, I am curious to know HOW much brighter a UN-protected cell would perform vs. Protected Cell. ....SixCats!

Click to expand...

Most likely answer: no brighter.

This light gets all the amperage it needs from unprotected cells, and it probably cannot exploit higher amperage.

It's like: if you could increase the size of the fuel-line from your gas-tank to your carburetor, would your car go faster?

Probably not. Only if the size of the fuel-line had been acting as a choke-point, which it is probably not. In any well-designed car, the fuel-line is plenty big enough for what the carburetor and the rest of the engine can handle.

When might a bigger fuel-line help performance? Only in a hot-rod, where every other part of the car had been modded and souped-up, where the fuel system has been re-designed so that it can suck down fuel at a ridiculous rate. In that case, having too small of a fuel-line from the gas tank might be the choke point, and a bigger one might give you a little better power.

So when does the switch to unprotected cells make a difference? In multi-cell lights that are pushing the limits on every other front--pushing the limits on what the emitters can do, pushing the limits on reducing resistance in every part of the circuit-path through the body, and so on. Or in hot-rodded lights that are specially souped-up by modders like Vinh.

The Klarus is a good light, but it's a stock light, not a hot-rod like a Vinh-modded light. You probably wouldn't see any difference with unprotected vs. protected cells.

Ah! So if I understand you correctly Twiste......the fact that Klarus uses "some" form of regulation (and not direct-drive) circuitry, the use of UN-protected cells really is NOT a benefit ?

SixCats!

To make one thing clear

no PCB and NON protected cells are not the same

all quality cells have a vent contruction which disconnencts the cell when it is venting
and they have a bimetal switch triggering overdischarge and temperature

cheap fake cells like Ultrafire dont have a vent protection or bimetal, so they can burn and explode when getting to hot or short circuit

the PCB protects mainly against overcharge and overdischarge
and terminates very fast too high currents, while the bimetal terminates slow and should not be triggered often as it is not build for triggering often


if the flashlight doesnt drain too high current, protects against overdischarge and you use a good charger there is not a higher risk of battery failure than in a laptop with non PCB cells

If their lights have a very aggressive regulation to where it turns on in max brightness even if the battery is drained to say-- 3.0v--then the unprotected cell would potentially allow the light to turn on in max brightness, while the protected cell would only be limited to lesser output levels. It entirely depends on the driver inside the light and how it handles battery voltages etc.

I'm not sure about Klarus lights, although they do seem of good quality. Any good quality light with low votage cutoff protection runs no risk of using unprotected cells.

First, some definitions. A protected cell will use a battery chemistry referred to as ICR. Unprotected cells will usually use chemistries know as IMR or INR. There is another difference besides the ability to provide more output current. Every Li-Ion cell has an internal resistance, that varies in the different chemistries, and is lower in the IMR/INR cells. In many cases where one can get that little bit more output by using an unprotected cell, it is not the extra current that makes the difference. If the light really needed that much extra current, then it would trip the protection circuit on a protected cell. But as was said, some high performance lights push the edge of possibility from their components. What makes the difference is the fact that the output voltage of an IMR/INR cell does not drop as much under load compared to an ICR chemistry cell. That means that the driver circuitry can produce that little bit more output to the LED, resulting in the little bit more lumen output from the light.

Lexel said:

if the flashlight… protects against overdischarge

Click to expand...

The light does not HAVE built in overdischarge protection, THAT is why the mfg wants you to use a Protected cell, to prevent OVERDISCHARGE! Nothing to do with brightness, its about fire safety.

twistedraven said:

Any good quality light with low votage cutoff protection runs no risk of using unprotected cells.

Click to expand...

By that definition, the Klarus is not a "good quality light" since it does NOT have low voltage cutoff protection.

imo UNLESS the light has BUILT IN low voltage protection, a newbie to LiIon should stick to Protected Cells, until they develop more advanced safety skills (the habit of checking battery voltage to prevent overdischarge)

the reason some people dislike protected cells, is some cut off at 3.6 volts, and they cut off suddently. Those people prefer to drain to a lower power level (for example the 3v mentioned above), to get longer run time, and also they want the light to get gradually dimmer, instead of cutting off suddenly and leaving them in the dark. Zebralights have BUILT IN overdischarge protection that cuts off at 2.7v.

So, if youre worried about being left suddenly in the dark when the protected cell shuts off, the solution is to carry an extra Protected Cell, and monitor battery voltage so you can replace the discharged cell Before the protection circuit turns the light off while in use

jon_slider said:

The light does not HAVE built in overdischarge protection, THAT is why the mfg wants you to use a Protected cell, to prevent OVERDISCHARGE! Nothing to do with brightness, its about fire safety.



By that definition, the Klarus is not a "good quality light" since it does NOT have low voltage cutoff protection.

Click to expand...

If that's the case then definitely get the protected cell.

I think the issues of why someone might have told the OP a light could work better running unprotected could be the following:

1. Draw of light greater than protection circuit might allow.

2. Maybe issue with protection circuit not allowing maximum voltage/charge.

i think the OP might have been given misinformation (probably about to get that from me. LOL). I don't think his light will preform any different. Also higher drain protection circuits allow for high drain protected batteries. They are available but again betting his light would work just fine. Personally unless the light has built in cut off at least 2.6 volts I would not use unprotected lithium ion. The exception being a user who really knows how their gear (light) responds to a run down battery.

jon_slider said:

The light does not HAVE built in overdischarge protection, THAT is why the mfg wants you to use a Protected cell, to prevent OVERDISCHARGE! Nothing to do with brightness, its about fire safety.



By that definition, the Klarus is not a "good quality light" since it does NOT have low voltage cutoff protection.

imo UNLESS the light has BUILT IN low voltage protection, a newbie to LiIon should stick to Protected Cells, until they develop more advanced safety skills (the habit of checking battery voltage to prevent overdischarge)

the reason some people dislike protected cells, is some cut off at 3.6 volts, and they cut off suddently. Those people prefer to drain to a lower power level (for example the 3v mentioned above), to get longer run time, and also they want the light to get gradually dimmer, instead of cutting off suddenly and leaving them in the dark. Zebralights have BUILT IN overdischarge protection that cuts off at 2.7v.

So, if youre worried about being left suddenly in the dark when the protected cell shuts off, the solution is to carry an extra Protected Cell, and monitor battery voltage so you can replace the discharged cell Before the protection circuit turns the light off while in use

Click to expand...

Over discharge and fire safety?
Before I refute what you've said, can you please explain how an over discharged cell is a fire hazard?

IPTelman said:

can you please explain how an over discharged cell is a fire hazard?

Click to expand...

sure
when you recharge an overdischarged cell, overheating can lead to venting with fire
did you really not know that?

I did know that. It wasn't a proper response.
A discharged cell is no fire hazard.

It is the act of attempting to recharge a damaged battery that could cause a conflagration.
Most if not all chargers worth their salt have mechanisms in place to stop a charge if the battery exceeds a safe temperature.

Hi all,


Whoa....OK then. Lots to consider here. As I mentioned early in my thread, I am indeed a 18650 Newbie. When I turn on my "Tactical" KLARUS XT2C which being a "Tactical Light" defaults (aways) to it's HIGHEST setting/mode. I use the HIGHEST setting to either light up my Home/property (in rural/Countryside Maine) upon returning home. I run this HIGHEST setting/mode perhaps for no more than......20 seconds after which time I step it down (two paddle clicks) to it's lowest Mode where perhaps I'll run the light for another 30 seconds (to one minute) time at most. I figure when (on a CLEAR night) if the light begins to look......not as bright on HIGHEST mode......is that the time to recharge or wait until it's really obviously not as bright ? Presently, I am using ORBTRONIC 3500 mAh Protected 18650's and/or CR123. I carry EXTRA 18650's in a GOOD Bag. Heck, I have/carry AAA, AA, CR123's and 18650's and Flashlights with me/nearby at all times.

SixCats!

SixCats!

A good quality, pcb protected cell will give you the best from your Klarus lights. Simple as that.