Are protected cells a dying breed?

I still remember back when I joined this board in late 2012. Back around that time, the XM-L was king of the hill, high CRI was something exotic, and thise folks who used Li-Ion batteries used nothing but protected cells (with VERY few exceptions). To NOT use protected cells back then was, as was frequently quoted around here back then, like having unprotected sex with a stranger. If you DID use then, it was recommended that you carry a multimeter at all times and frequently check voltage. Basically, all the 'cool kids' around here used some form of protected NCR18650A or NCR18650B in their light. Yes, there were safer IMR batteries. But few people used them because their low capacity basically ensured that flashlights literally lived up to their name.

These days, it seems like more and more people are giving protected cells the old 'heave ho' in favor of modern, higher current, high capacity unprotected cells. And new Zebralights don't even take protected cells (not sure if any other manufacturers are following suit). It seems like nowadays, there is an abundance of safer chemistry, high quality cells with high current output (which exceeds the ability to typicall protection PCBs). Flashlights also often draw current in excess of what would cause protection circuits to trip and have built-in protection anyway. High quality chargers are inexpensive and widely available. And people around here are generally more knowledgable about the use of Li-Ion batteries. It would seem that all of these factors are pushing protected cells (especially of the overpriced, flashlight branded variety) into extinction. What do you think?

As you said the capacity is much closer between icr and the hybrid cells. Also the voltage is higher in the hybrid cells so you either get higher brightness or longer regulated output. Chargers are better. Low voltage protection on drivers is better. I think the main thing is the cells are more robust and can take being over discharged much better. An ncrB cell is toast if it sits below 2.5v for any length of time. Something like a 25r will be just fine. The only advantage a protected lico cell has now is a 2 cell buck driver 3v led light. Then you can make use of all the extra capacity at the low voltage it comes at

vicv said:

The only advantage a protected lico cell has now is a 2 cell buck driver 3v led light. Then you can make use of all the extra capacity at the low voltage it comes at

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Then again, where are these ICR cells with all this 'extra capacity' (at low voltage or otherwise)? The highest capacity 18650s are hybrid cells with around 3500mAH. It's not like there's a 3800mAH ICR 18650 floating around out there. My guess is that ICR chemistry can't do better than the best hybrid cells out there when it comes to capacity.

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Although more people use unprotected cells these days, I don't think protected cells are going anywhere and are still far more common. There still are very few flashlights that even support unprotected cells in the grand scheme. And, many modern protected PCB's support 10amps continuous so current issues are mostly a thing of the past as well. I think many people use unprotected because of their considerably lower cost. Protected cells are still the safest option and even in well protected single cell lights, offer an added layer of protection. You also have to remember that this is an enthusiast site and isn't really a good representation of the general market. Even most specialty flashlight shops don't sell many, if any, unprotected cells. The cell manufactures won't condone their use either. I don't think protected cells are going anywhere and I don't see unprotected cells taking over the market anytime soon if ever.

StorminMatt said:

Then again, where are these ICR cells with all this 'extra capacity' (at low voltage or otherwise)? The highest capacity 18650s are hybrid cells with around 3500mAH. It's not like there's a 3800mAH ICR 18650 floating around out there. My guess is that ICR chemistry can't do better than the best hybrid cells out there when it comes to capacity.

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The Panasonic ncrB has all its extra capacity at low voltage. On a 1A discharge it'll hit 3.5v in the same time as a 2200mah cell. Then it stays forever between that and 3V. I consider it to be a dead cell when it can't support regulation or whiteness with incan

vicv said:

The Panasonic ncrB has all its extra capacity at low voltage. On a 1A discharge it'll hit 3.5v in the same time as a 2200mah cell. Then it stays forever between that and 3V. I consider it to be a dead cell when it can't support regulation or whiteness with incan

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Its still a great cell though and likely one of the most, if not the most, popular cells of all time. They work great in normal average output lights just not so great in hotrods.

vicv said:

The Panasonic ncrB has all its extra capacity at low voltage. On a 1A discharge it'll hit 3.5v in the same time as a 2200mah cell. Then it stays forever between that and 3V. I consider it to be a dead cell when it can't support regulation or whiteness with incan

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Also keep in mind that the NCR18650B is a hybrid rather than a true ICR. So it's perhaps not the best comparison.

I labeled it wrong. I consider high cap cells lico and high drain as hybrid. The GA does look like a good cell though but since I also vape I just buy inr type cells and use them for everything. I know the ncrB is one of the most popular cells ever. Could never figure why. Maybe I just got two bad ones but I'll never buy another. Most people seem to have good luck with them. I know if you go to hjk's comparator it looks pretty bad compared to just about any other cell though

Tachead said:

Protected cells are still the safest option and even in well protected single cell lights, offer an added layer of protection.

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:thinking:

Right, for those occassions when the user may not have been keeping track of run time and by overdischarging possibly damaging the cell unawares increasing risk of fire or explosion later when charging a damaged cell. That extra layer of safety and protection for the cells is critical for preventing the worst cell abuses from occuring, and possibly saves the user from runaway battery expendatures.

I still use a protected only in my 47s light because of its buck/boost circuit. To easy to go too low in voltage with that light and not know it.

chillinn said:

:thinking:

Right, for those occassions when the user may not have been keeping track of run time and by overdischarging possibly damaging the cell unawares increasing risk of fire or explosion later when charging a damaged cell. That extra layer of safety and protection for the cells is critical for preventing the worst cell abuses from occuring, and possibly saves the user from runaway battery expendatures.

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Then again, you are VERY unlikely to overdischarge a cell in said 'well-protected single cell light'. I place ALOT more trust in the low voltage protection used in a good light than in a cheap PCB placed on a battery which, by the way, is vulnerable to damage from being dropped, banged around, etc (don't tell me you've never dropped a battery). Unprotected batteries also lack the failure point of a positive strip along the side of the negative can, which could potentially cause a dead short if the wrap is damaged.

And although I don't know if this has ever caused serious problems, I know that excessive spring pressure due to excessive length can damage protection circuits and lights. This at least holds the POSSIBILITY of causing a short. Such problems are particularly likely with small cells (like 14500s, since protection circuits has a particularly large effect on the length of these cells).

StorminMatt said:

These days, it seems like more and more people are giving protected cells the old 'heave ho' in favor of modern, higher current, high capacity unprotected cells. And new Zebralights don't even take protected cells

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My impression is lights that do NOT have built in protection, Require protected cells. Olight for example requires protected LiIon cells in their S1.

and lights that DO have built in protection, do Not require protected cells. Zebralight for example

AAA and AA primary batteries have voltages too low to be compatible with the overdischarge limits of LiIon cells, so lights that use AAA or AA generally cannot implement built in protection.

flashaholics that choose to use unprotected cells in unprotected lights that are not rate for LiIon Voltage, such as the AAA Tool, are specialists who know how to monitor voltage to avoid overdischarge, they are not the norm, and a newbie could get into trouble doing that

an AA light whose voltage range is officially compatible with LiIon AND primaries such as Klarus Mi7, cannot implement built in protection, because the primary AA battery 1.5 voltage is too far below the required cutoff voltage for a LiIon 14500 (Klarus uses brightness stepdown, and misnames it overdischarge protection). imnsho, Protected Cells would be safer to use in the Klarus, than unprotected cells.

it seems slightly easier to design a light with built in protection, if it runs on CR123, because the voltage of the Primary is high enough not to trigger built in protection cutoff for the LiIon option

for example, I believe Zebralight, in their CR123 lights, has a 2.7v built in cutoff, overdischarge protection. This means it can use a 16340 that starts at 4.2 volts, OR a CR123 that starts at 3 volts… IF Zebralight had set the protection cutoff at 3.5v, the light would not work with Primary cells.

Similarly, an 18650 light that wants to retain compatibility with CR123 primaries, has voltage cutoff challenges, so the solution is to NOT build in a LiIon voltage cutoff protection circuit, and to instead require that the protection circuit be built into the battery. That way if a user wants to run CR123 primaries, they can run them down until they are completely, totally drained, getting dimmer over time, instead of suddenly turning off due to a voltage protection circuit.

Marketing spin on unprotected lights that are compatible with primaries is that you will have ample warning to change batteries, when you notice how dim the light has become, without leaving you "stranded" in the dark..

Marketing spin on lights with protection circuits, or with protected LiIon requirements, will include a battery meter feature, to help the user to avoid being stranded in the dark.

Besides, being stranded in the dark is a manageable obstacle.. carry a spare battery

So, Are protected cells a dying breed? I would say no. Nitecore and Olight require them, and sell them. Zebralight went a different direction. They use an arguably overly low cutoff voltage in their CR123 dual chemistry lights. But they are also moving towards single chemistry lights. That is, they will either require LiIon, or Require Primaries only, such as the SC5.

The whole protected cell issue, is caused by a design goal to remain backwards compatible with primaries, whose operating voltage is below the safe discharge level for LiIon.

there are 3 ways to protect a light from overdischarge, the first two are obvious
the 3rd way is for the operator to act like an overdischarge protection device, they need to monitor their cells voltage manually, and monitor their runtime between charges. It requires active, intelligent, interaction from the operator of an unprotected light with unprotected cells. This is something only a few people are capable or interested in doing. It can be done, there are definitely people that do run unprotected cells in unprotected lights, but imo, they are a small, but vocal, minority.

StorminMatt said:

Then again, you are VERY unlikely to overdischarge a cell in said 'well-protected single cell light'. I place ALOT more trust in the low voltage protection used in a good light than in a cheap PCB placed on a battery which, by the way, is vulnerable to damage from being dropped, banged around, etc (don't tell me you've never dropped a battery). Unprotected batteries also lack the failure point of a positive strip along the side of the negative can, which could potentially cause a dead short if the wrap is damaged.

And although I don't know if this has ever caused serious problems, I know that excessive spring pressure due to excessive length can damage protection circuits and lights. This at least holds the POSSIBILITY of causing a short. Such problems are particularly likely with small cells (like 14500s, since protection circuits has a particularly large effect on the length of these cells).

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It's not just about over discharge. Many PTC's protect against over discharge, over current, over charging, overheating, and short circuit. All you would have to do is accidentally put an unprotected cell in a light that draws too much current for its rating or put a cell in a high power light without temperature regulation and run it too long and it could cause some major issues. Also, electronics in lights and chargers can fail or be defective causing major issues. The PTC will cut power if the cell gets too hot, if too much current is demanded, if the cells voltage goes too low, if the cells voltage goes too high, and if a short circuit is detected.

As for trusting a lights low voltage protection more then a PTC, they both could fail and both can be damaged from being dropped. Not to mention, many PTC's on cells are made by Seiko Industries which is a famous high end Japanese electronics company that has been making precision electronics and instruments for almost 80 years. Do you trust a small boutique light company that's been in business for a few years over Seiko?

Then there is the positive strip... Many, I might even say most, high quality protected cells don't use that positive strip any longer and even go as far as using a riveted a steel cap to protect the positive anode and PTC. This steel cap also protects against excessive spring pressure(not that that has ever been an issue that I have heard about).

The bottom line is that protected cells are more safe and add an extra level of safety both in use and when charging. That is a fact. Can it still be safe to use unprotected cells? Sure but, the safety margins are definitely lower and unprotected cells should only be used by experienced and meticulous users imo.

I don't see unprotected cells ever becoming more common because the cell manufacturers dont condone/approve of their use in this matter, there are too many liability issues, and because your average Joe Blow user will always be better off with the added safety margins and idiot proofing that protected cells offer.

For disclosure, this comes from a user of both protected and unprotected cells. I just got four more unprotected GA's actually.

Tachead said:

As for trusting a lights low voltage protection more then a PTC, they both could fail and both can be damaged from being dropped. Not to mention, many PTC's on cells are made by Seiko Industries which is a famous high end Japanese electronics company that has been making precision electronics and instruments for almost 80 years. Do you trust a small boutique light company that's been in business for a few years over Seiko?

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Actually, I do. The protection circuit in a light is encased in aluminum. The PCB on a protected battery, on the other hand, is out in the open and vulnerable. If I drop my Zebralight, the protection circuit is not going to take the brunt of the blow.

StorminMatt said:

Actually, I do. The protection circuit in a light is encased in aluminum. The PCB on a protected battery, on the other hand, is out in the open and vulnerable. If I drop my Zebralight, the protection circuit is not going to take the brunt of the blow.

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As I said, many new protected cells PCB are encased inside a steel shell now. Here is an example...



Plus, when was the last time you heard of a dropped batteries PCB looking fine, still being attached, the battery still working, but the PCB's protections not working? And, there is an easy solution. Don't drop your batteries. And, if you do, make sure you inspect and test them well before trusting them again. You should anyway because the cells internal chemistry is susceptible to shock damage as well.

My point was that Seiko's electronics are likely far more trust worthy, high quality, and advanced, then Zebralights(just because you used them in your example) in general. I wasn't talking about drop resistance.

duplicate

Tachead said:

The bottom line is that protected cells are more safe and add an extra level of safety both in use and when charging. That is a fact. Can it still be safe to use unprotected cells? Sure but, the safety margins are definitely lower and unprotected cells should only be used by experienced and meticulous users imo.

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Right, but it is important not to stress their value too much, that protected cells in many cases add a false sense of security, and all the stories we hear about vapers dead shorting their cells and causing injury, or even flashlights causing injury, it very likely would have made no difference whether those cells were protected or not... that the problems we hear about these days, protection, no protection, those events were going to happen anyway.

There is no substitute for best safe practices when dealing with Li-ion cells, and though a protection circuit will help keep your cell budget lower by preventing some cell abuse, if you are abusing your cells, sooner or later there may be trouble and there is no protection circuit that is going to save you. There is too great a risk to put all that faith in a little trip in a battery, so have some sense of what the issues are and exactly what that protection circuit can and can't do. Then, once you have experiential knowledge and adopt best practices, often the protection becomes superfluous.

I think protected cells are a dying breed, and for good reason. They aren't needed, and in the worst situations that have occurred, with injury, the circuit made no difference.

chillinn said:

Right, but it is important not to stress their value too much, that protected cells in many cases add a false sense of security, and all the stories we hear about vapers dead shorting their cells and causing injury, or even flashlights causing injury, it very likely would have made no difference whether those cells were protected or not... that the problems we hear about these days, protection, no protection, those events were going to happen anyway.

There is no substitute for best safe practices when dealing with Li-ion cells, and though a protection circuit will help keep your cell budget lower by preventing some cell abuse, if you are abusing your cells, sooner or later there may be trouble and there is no protection circuit that is going to save you. There is too great a risk to put all that faith in a little trip in a battery, so have some sense of what the issues are and exactly what that protection circuit can and can't do. Then, once you have experiential knowledge and adopt best practices, often the protection becomes superfluous.

I think protected cells are a dying breed, and for good reason. They aren't needed, and in the worst situations that have occurred, with injury, the circuit made no difference.

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I have to disagree somewhat. Vapers don't use protected cells. Most vape shops, online or brick and mortar, don't stock any protected cells. Most mods just draw too much current. Can issues still happen with a good protected cell? Sure but, it is very rare and likely more due to a faulty cell or damaged internal chemistry due to the consumer letting the cell sit until the voltage drains to a dangerous level. Good quality PTC's protect against short circuit, over current, over charge, over discharge, and over temperature. So, even if a vaper gets his button stuck on his mod in his pocket(if he was using a protected cell which is not usually the case) or a flashlight gets left on in turbo, the PTC will automatically cut output before any venting or dangerous conditions occur. Now PTC's can fail like all electronics so that can be an issue, especially with low quality protected cells with low quality PTC's.

I think realistically, if all cells were protected, there would be far less accidents worldwide. The vast majority of accidents are caused by inexperienced or careless users using unprotected cells. Lets hope they don't ruin it for the rest of us responsible users. I fear if enough accidents happen, the government may step in and limit or ban sale/use of unprotected cells. That would not be cool. Remember, the cell manufactures are already very against the use of their cells in this manner and will not sell cells to the consumer for this purpose.

I agree with you though that safe practices and caution should still be taken even with protected cells. All lithium chemistry cells are inherently dangerous and should be used with care.

As to your last paragraph, I don't think they are even close to a dying breed. The vast majority of flashlights and lanterns on the market can't even use unprotected cells. Not to mention, as said earlier, pretty much all cell manufactures wont condone their use and most larger retailers won't sell unprotected cells due to liability issues. I am not sure where you got this stat about the worst situations but, it is simply untrue imo. Almost all the recent injuries in the news, over the last few years, were caused by vapers using unprotected cells in unprotected mods. The others were internal issues/flaws with the chemistry.

As said, PTC's cant protect against every situation but, they still protect against most of them and are a much better/more safe option for an average user/consumer.

I just finished emailing some flashlight recommendation to a coworker who's going to buy for her husband. I'm assuming these will be your "average" consumer so I recommended only a protected cell. I assume most average consumer won't monitor voltage levels as much as most of use here so I don't want them to take a risk with unprotected cells. Even still, I'm hesitant to recommend any li-ion lights to the average consumer.