Low voltage warning on Sportac Triple Nichia 219C drop-in - is this normal?

StorminMatt

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I got my Sportac Triple 219C drop-in the other day. And while I have to say that the output is STUPENDOUS, I have run into a problem. If I put in a freshly charged NCR18650GA, the light runs fine for about 40-50 minutes. After that time, the low voltage warning kicks in, periodically cutting off the light. But at that point, battery voltage is still around 3.7V (plus or minus). This just seems WAYYY TOO HIGH (and the runtime too short) for the low voltage warning to kick in. My other Sportac (4500K Nichia 219B) will drain the battery down to around 3.0-3.2V (and show pretty good dimming) before the warning starts (and with the MUCH saggier UR16650zta rather than the GA). Is this a problem? Or has Eagletac raised the cutoff?

I should add that the drop-in is well wrapped in aluminum from a pie tin, and fits the host VERY snugly. So poor electrical contact with the host is VERY unlikely.
 
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vadimax

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Very likely that might be not voltage, but thermal cut off. Is your light head warm enough before the drop-in starts to turn off? Why do I ask? I use a Sportac triple Nichia with a copper thermal wrap in a Solarforce L2T SS. And it becomes pretty warm at high level. If your light does not heat up that may mean one thing: your drop-in fails to do effective heat transfer and its overheat protection does kick in.
 

StorminMatt

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Thermal cutoff is highly unlikely. I can put a battery that is at 3.7V in a completely cold light, and it still intermittently cuts off. I can then immediately stick in a fully charged battery and run the light constantly with no problems until voltage drops to around 3.7V. As for the light getting warm, it does get pretty warm, but not too bad. Like I said, it is VERY snugly wrapped, but well cooled with an M2 Cryos Cooling Bezel.

I should also note that the drop-in does not completely cut off. It just periodically cuts out for a second or two before coming back on. With Eagletac products, this is a low voltage warning.
 
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StorminMatt

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I actually just tried another runtime test with my UR16650zta. And when charged to 4.35V, it ran for 31 minutes before the low voltage warning kicked in. The disproportionately longer runtime (compared to capacity) before low voltage warning was due to the higher average voltage of the 4.35V battery. But in the end, this battery rested to 4.83V after the low voltage warning kicked in (due to the 'saggier' nature of this cell vs the GA). In other words, low voltage warning is still coming in FAR too soon. So it's definitely not the battery. It's also not the switch, as bypassing it still results in low voltage warning. Time to call Illumination Gear, I guess.
 

StorminMatt

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Try a copper wrapping. That pie pan may be a not so good conductor and/or heat sync.

Like I said before, I have another Sportac Triple that is similarly wrapped that does not start to cut out until the battery is dead. Plus, when this one starts to cut out, I can immediately put a fresh battery and it doesn't cut out until that battery is drained to about 3.7V.
 
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NutSAK

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Like I said before, I have another Sportac Triple that is similarly wrapped that does not start to cut out until the battery is dead. Plus, when this one starts to cut out, I can immediately put a fresh battery and it doesn't cut out until that battery is drained to about 3.7V.

I agree that 3.7V (open circuit) is a bit high for the warning, since it still has ~20% remaining capacity. However, waiting until 3.0V (open circuit) for the warning is too late, and damage has likely been done to the cell at that point. A Li-Ion cell at 3.5V open circuit is basically empty.
 
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ven

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You can run a cell down to 3v without any issue to the cell. Most manufacturers have a min voltage spec of 2.5v or 2.8v. However most flashlights/drivers will run down to 3.0v before warning. So basically, running a cell down to 3v(18650) will not damage it.
 

ven

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I wonder now and spoke to flashaholics about the possibility that sportac sent some 219c in the 219b triples. The tint was cooler but a creamy or more a dirty white so returned...........wonder if they mixed a batch up!

Is it a single mode matt? one for up to 9v? maybe if the case, this is something to do with the voltage kicking in and thinking its on 2 cells(just guessing). Does sound like an issue/fault and would be interesting to see what they say on the matter.
 

NutSAK

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You can run a cell down to 3v without any issue to the cell. Most manufacturers have a min voltage spec of 2.5v or 2.8v. However most flashlights/drivers will run down to 3.0v before warning. So basically, running a cell down to 3v(18650) will not damage it.

Those are in-circuit (loaded) values, not open-circuit values. Keep in mind, if you run a cell down to 3v in circuit, the open-circuit, resting voltage value will be considerably higher as the voltage of the unloaded cell rebounds.

Manufacturers spec 2.5V-2.8V minimum closed circuit as a safety precaution, not to protect the cell from damage.

If you continually run a cell down below 3V resting (open-circuit) voltage, I guarantee you will prematurely shorten the life of that cell. I'm guessing that the voltages StorminMatt has provided are resting cell voltages, not closed-circuit cell voltage.
 
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StorminMatt

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If you continually run a cell down below 3V resting (open-circuit) voltage, I guarantee you will prematurely shorten the life of that cell. I'm guessing that the voltages StorminMatt has provided are resting cell voltages, not closed-circuit cell voltage.

I don't ROUTINELY run the other Sportac down to 3.0V. I just did this for testing. By 3.0V, the light has already dimmed considerably. I should also note that this is not exactly a resting voltage. It's voltage measured immediately on removal of the battery, which is naturally somewhere between working and resting voltage. It seems like most built-in lownvoltage protection/warning circuits kick in at about 2.7V, which corresponds well to the measured voltage. Of course, this also depends on the mode, as the voltage will recover more on higher modes at a given cutoff vs lower modes.

I wonder now and spoke to flashaholics about the possibility that sportac sent some 219c in the 219b triples. The tint was cooler but a creamy or more a dirty white so returned...........wonder if they mixed a batch up!
Is it a single mode matt? one for up to 9v? maybe if the case, this is something to do with the voltage kicking in and thinking its on 2 cells(just guessing). Does sound like an issue/fault and would be interesting to see what they say on the matter.


The drop-in is dual mode. I don't think they even offer the 4000K 219C in the single mode. In any case, I also have a single mode in another host. And it has no low voltage warning. This is probably due to the possibility of running it at a wide variety of voltages vs the single mode (which is optimized for a single Li-Ion). As for the 219C in 219B drop-ins, my other dual mode has tint somewhatbas you describe. But the emitters look like they are 219B and not 219C. Tint is not as good as your typical 219B for whatever reason. But color rendition is still better thsn uour typical low CRI 219C.
 
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NutSAK

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I don't ROUTINELY run the other Sportac down to 3.0V.

I wasn't implying that you were. I was explaining to ven how 3.0V can damage a cell, at that is why I quoted him. But, if a normal user who doesn't know better waits until the warning kicks in, that is what is going to happen. Regardless of whether it's "true resting" voltage, that 3.0V you're measuring open circuit is more than what it is loaded, and of course the difference is greater at higher currents.

The thing is, I don't feel that either one of your drop-ins is really working well with the warning. One is warning too early, the other is warning too late. Of course the new one that warns too early would annoy me as well, more than the older one.

I think I would be contacting Sportac about the new Triple. I don't think it should be "normal" to warn at 3.7V open circuit.

Just my $.02
 
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StorminMatt

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A Li-Ion cell at 3.5V open circuit is basically empty.

Not true, especially with a cell like the NCR18650GA. High capacity cells actually have much of their capacity at lower voltages (which is one complaint about them). But even a Sony VTC6 has a decent amount of capacity available between 3.7 and 3.2V.
 

NutSAK

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Not true, especially with a cell like the NCR18650GA. High capacity cells actually have much of their capacity at lower voltages (which is one complaint about them). But even a Sony VTC6 has a decent amount of capacity available between 3.7 and 3.2V.

Yes, it is true. According to NCR18650GA discharge curves at 1A, 3.5V there is approximately .8Ah remaining in the cell. That would put it at roughly .2Ah remaining at 3.5V open circuit (estimated).
 
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StorminMatt

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Link here to a graph, on a single cell it should pretty much tail off and not cut out from this. I use mine daily but never get much bellow 3.6v before days end and re-charge cell.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?217252-P60-sized-led-drop-ins-(part-3)/page48

This runtime chart applies to the single mode drop-in, NOT the two mode drop-in. They are actually two rather different animals. Unlike the single mode drop-in, the two mode drop-in is actually optimized for single cell operation and cannot even tolerate two Li-Ion cells. It maintains brightness much better on one cell vs the single mode drop-in.
 

ven

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Right, my two mode triples are in work and the single nichia triple is in a cooly host. Not been used to get much bellow 3.9v at a time yet.....must try harder!
 

StorminMatt

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Yes, it is true. According to NCR18650GA discharge curves at 1A, 3.5V there is approximately .8Ah remaining in the cell. That would put it at roughly .2Ah remaining at 3.5V open circuit (estimated).

At 1A, .8Ah is almost an hour more runtime, which is not insignificant. And this only increases as current draw increases. As for voltage readings, remember that when I measured, the cells were not fully rested. So voltage was somewhere between loaded and fully rested.
 
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