Manufacturer Grades_Who makes what level of quality.

I haven't seen a thread doing a cross-manufacturer quality comparison in quite a while so I thought it might be interesting to see how we, the lighting community, feel that the manufacturers stack up these days.
Every manufacturer produces its superstars and its duds so I'm hoping we can take a step back from that and give an assessment based on the overall production lines from each company.

Manufacturers are listed in no particular order

Superior

• Klarus
• Malkoff
• O-Light
• Jetbeam
• Fenix
• Nitecore
• Powertac
• Surefire

Good

• ThorFire (would reach superior if their out-the-door QC improved)
• Ray-O-Vac
• Maglite
• Princeton Tec
• Petzel (in my book they lose points for price vs product)
• Streamlight (not quite keeping up with the times)

Average

• LED Lenser
• Coast
• Ozark Trail (walmart brand)
• Foxelli

Poor

• Nebo
• J5
• YiFeng

Terrible

• SuperBrite (and a host of other one-off Chinese knock off companies)
• LE

So...
Are you basing these levels from a level of 1) the latest features, or perhaps 2) the engineering, accuracy of manufacture and lifespan potential?

If it's 2 I must respectfully disagree. The actual manufacturers to a bunch cited as poor, good and superior are actually made in the same building. They use different parts to assemble what turns this or that into a brand A or B. I won't go into brand names since the subject matter is already potentially explosive, but will say if you know what's behind the curtain that list would look drastically different.

bykfixer said:

<snip>I won't go into brand names since the subject matter is already potentially explosive, but will say if you know what's behind the curtain that list would look drastically different.

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In the old days we used to be able to say "this brand is generally good, this brand is generally crap" enough times to come to some sort of consensus where most people agreed to some general territory for each brand/light without cowering away from the fallout.

So lets pull that curtain aside then and give some assessments based on our joint knowledgebase.

It's literally how CPF came to be a source for people looking for solid, independent, information.

Or isn't this that kind of site anymore?

Sure, you can share your feelings here. Many people have forgotton how to disagree or offer criticism respectfully though, especially on the internet. So when discussing a topic that is quite subjective, it takes an extra dose of patience to keep it constructive.

bykfixer said:

...
If it's 2 I must respectfully disagree. The actual manufacturers to a bunch cited as poor, good and superior are actually made in the same building. They use different parts to assemble what turns this or that into a brand A or B. I won't go into brand names since the subject matter is already potentially explosive, but will say if you know what's behind the curtain that list would look drastically different.

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+1

however, let's play along and allow me to humbly offer my lists (only lights that I have handled or use before... and I may miss a few brand names...)

Superior
- none, or rather, any brand and any light that is with my person when I need it most!

Consistently Good
- Elzetta
- Malkoff
- HDS
- SureFire
- PKDL
- Maglite
- Fenix
- Olight
- EagleTac / EagTac
- ZebraLight

Good
- Petzl
- Armytek
- Thrunite
- NiteCore
- Lumintop
- XTAR
- FourSevens
- Princeton Tec
- Solarforce

Average
- Energizer
- Manker

Below Average
- Eveready (except the Dolphin)

Poor
- Any light with low PWM and puky greenish tint!

Terrible
- Any light that doesn't turn-on when I needed it most... but so far -- None.

Good post RD


CPF is still a good source for the good and the bad. But in the old days things were made at various locations with a tremendous difference in machinery, in design, or even craftsmanship. Production efficiencies and profit were the basis for a company to suceed or fail once "the brand name" had been established.

These days many products we use everyday are made in city sized facilities that use very efficient assembly lines to create products that start out generically then go left or right to become brand A or brand B.

Being familiar with how manufacturing takes place and where can cast a completely different light on the subject. Then when a brand name is applied the "image" can change drastically. An example would be bottled water. From an aquifer in Pennsilvania comes the same water that goes into the WalMart brand of bottled water as the CocaCola brand. Same bottles, same caps, different labels.
Same goes for many other products we purchase like shoes, jeans, wrenches and flashlights with a slight difference in certain things to give it the brand appeal.

I'll mention one brand versus another in terms of flashlights. Two brands that in my mind are benchmarks in terms of brand recognition.
Maglite and Streamlight. Neither have that modern thinking sex appeal. Both have fantastic designs to start out, but the manufacture process carries them into polar opposite directions in order to keep prices competitive. Both tend to have low failure rates, yet the process tends to create an image that casts doubt on their appeal to the masses these days.
Maglite are produced using state of the art, ever evolving machinery with the owner over looking the process on a regular basis in California. Streamlight are largely made across the planet from Pennsilvania in a factory that makes a bunch of other brands as well. Mega-mass production comes first in those facilities. To the point where blemished, damaged or faulty items are no big deal. They are made so inexpensively that tossing the bad ones in the trash is cheaper than building them better to start with.

The Chinese factories have gotten really good at making quality products at warp speed. Basically to say this brand is better than that brand when both were made by the same machinery, using the same process then sent left or right to obtain brand specific items doesn't really tell the whole story. When we see for example, a Defiant flashlight in Home Depot next to a Coast, we have no idea they both began at the same facility. An Ozark Trail for example is made in the same building as an Energizer, a Rayovac or numerous other products that brand appeal makes us think they are superior.

Does not seem fair to name call a certain brand because a member had one sample that did not perform. Seems like it is up to viewers to search to see patterns regarding 'quality'. This kind of thread may bring out primarily those members who just like to disrespect certain brands or just crow about their favorites. There are those here who are trying to feed their families, put their children through school, and yet some yahoo know-it-all dude comes in flaming about some flashlight that did not do what the goober wanted. (examples of petty name calling).

In a competitive market such as flashlights, the fast moving, innovation seeking companies are bound to mess stuff up at times (Nitecore) while other, more staid companies can be looked at as 'quality' or reliable, but really their product is fairly simple to begin with, and does not have a lot to go wrong with it.

While some consider this forum to be essentially just entertainment, and others use it to compulsively talk, many of us would like it to be an accurate source of information and a place to share ideas to improve this Great Interest.

Does not seem fair to name call a certain brand because a member had one sample that did not perform.

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But if 5, 10, 50 or more people post their opinions, pretty soon you start to get real data to work with. Gotta start someplace and I doubt that many here have the dollars to buy 10 samples of each type of light.

I'd like to add Convoy to the "Consistently Good" group. I've bought about ten of them, spread across several models. They have good prices and very good customer service. I've never had one fail in service, although I did get one 1×AAA light that was DOA (they sent a new one pronto).

One particular thing that elevates Convoy in my eyes is the fact that they make a much wider range of spare parts available than most manufacturers, and many of their designs are easily user repairable and even upgradable. The S2+ lights come immediately to mind on this point.

I can also vouch for Fenix as a "Consistently Good" brand. I had lots of those when I was starting out as a flashaholic, and like Convoy, I've never seen one fail in service. I must have two dozen Fenix lights of various models scattered about the place, and some of them are still in use five years after I bought them. Out of all those lights, I had one LD01 that arrived DOA, which the dealer refunded without quibble.

I've also had a few LED Lensers, which I would rate as "Average". They're nice designs - their zooming optics are second to none - but they did seem to wear out faster than other brands of my experience. Switches were a particular weak point for me, and the LED Lensers are not generally user repairable.

Finally, I'd like to add Astrolux (Banggood's in-house brand) to the "Poor" group. They have nice designs, but their quality control is exceedingly flaky. Out of six Astrolux lights I've had, across three different models, I've had a 50% fault rate.

zespectre said:

I haven't seen a thread doing a cross-manufacturer quality comparison in quite a while so I thought it might be interesting to see how we, the lighting community, feel that the manufacturers stack up these days.
Every manufacturer produces its superstars and its duds so I'm hoping we can take a step back from that and give an assessment based on the overall production lines from each company.

Manufacturers are listed in no particular order

Superior

• Klarus
• Malkoff
• O-Light
• Jetbeam
• Fenix
• Nitecore
• Powertac
• Surefire

<SNIP>

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zespectre,
While I have more lights than the average person, I can't say that I have evaluated enough lights across enough of different brands to place each of them into different categories. Also, I think that your first post can be misleading in that the list is simply YOUR opinion, not one of the consensus of us as a group.

Of those lights that you have listed as superior, I have not owned, nor handled any of them. I think, from reading posts of owners, the only two that should be rated as superior, are Malkoff, and Surefire.

I have read that some question the reliability of Nitecore. Jetbeam sometimes copies other lights that are successful, and probably are made in the same factory (as bykfixer pointed out) for example the jetbeam mini (cooyoo), and the jetbeam HC10 (Crelant CH10). Personally, I much prefer the UI of the CH10.

many other manufacturers aren't on the list at all.
EagleTac, Thrunite, AceBeam, Manker, Emisar, Convoy.

As Bykfixer has said in the past... even a bad light isn't so bad anymore.

IMHO listing a brand as superior to others gives that brand an unfair marketing advantage over the others.

Elzetta, Surefire, or Acebeam looks, Elzetta or Surefire body construction, Elzetta or Surefire knurling or Armytek matte finish, Elzetta HA, Armytek threads, Zebralight efficiency, Elzetta or Malkoff potting, Elzetta TIR, Acebeam output and throw performance, (Klarus style magnetic charging), Zebralight programming, V54 or Pflexpro TINT, CRI, and choice of emitters --- superior characteristics from the sources I know that will make a killer flashlight.

I own literally hundreds of lights going back over 100 years in time and man let me tell ya, some are absolute junk.
The 1930's for example saw American lights were excellent in design and execution where the Asian made appeared to be in built in the 1600's. By the 1950's the lights coming from Asia were hard to distinguish from their European and American counterparts. Russian made were still very much lagging in stature and structure.

In the late 1960's things made a dramatic turn when Don Keller began using irragation pipe for flashlight bodies. Companies like Bright Star, Burgess, Eveready and Rayovac had the process down to a science and were making millions of quality products.

SureFire, Streamlight and Maglite came along and raised the bar even higher. By the late 1990's CNC machinery and smarter/faster computers began the process we still see today. The LED was a potential replacement for the light bulb and hard anodize was the norm.

By 2010 the sky was the limit and the market began to see a flood of competition. Yet the bar of quality was becoming largely equal versus those days some 50 years before. At this point, what some would consider low caliber is still a lot higher than what low caliber once was.

Competition has resulted in a win-win for the consumer. So yeah, even a bad flashlight aint bad these days....

I must thank bykfixer for making the engineering process apparent, I sorta wondered if something like this is what went on and it's good to get a bit of confirmation. I've wondered how two reasonably similar lights display a significant price difference and find it hard to justify the price difference based on current popularity of a name. From my occasional perusal of this forum, it appears there's more posts to indicate the consensus is Surefire, Malkoff and Elzetta are the 'superior' lights, but that plenty others are at the upper end of good.

I like Phlogiston's comment regarding his Convoys, I seem to read fairly consistent good feedback on these lights yet they are a fraction of what other manufacturers would have us pay. Maybe the price to performance ratio could bump this brand up to the top!

Convoy would be one of those products that show just how far the quality bar has been raised. At the cost versus say... a Malkoff... 20 years ago a big gap in cost would mean a big gap in quality. But these days not so much.

Yeah a Malkoff could likely stand up to a nearby hand grenade blast. But it is built to stand up to that sort of thing. A Convoy on the other hand although not built to withstand the blast a Malkoff can does not make it a hunk-a-junk either. Instead it is a testament to how well things can be made at a really low cost these days.