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View Poll Results: Would you buy an HDS in natural HA?

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  • Heckin' yeah!

    41 64.06%
  • Yes, but only if the colors match

    15 23.44%
  • No. Paint it Black!

    8 12.50%
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Thread: HDS Natural HA

  1. #1

    Default HDS Natural HA

    Continued from http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ROUP-BUY/page3

    I don't know if it would be possible but I think it'd be super cool to have a limited run or group buy for an HDS with the old natural HA finish. I'd be willing to sign a waiver saying I'll never complain about mismatched ano on penalty of excommunication or something.

    Anybody else?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dan View Post
    Continued from http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ROUP-BUY/page3

    I don't know if it would be possible but I think it'd be super cool to have a limited run or group buy for an HDS with the old natural HA finish. I'd be willing to sign a waiver saying I'll never complain about mismatched ano on penalty of excommunication or something.

    Anybody else?
    I totally agree with this. I love the old HA finish on my Surefire LX2 and HDS EDC Ultimate. I actually like the mismatched anodization. It reminds me of the ScarH rifle. It adds character!

    Already brought this up in the HDS thread though and Hogo said it was a no-go. Maybe if enough people agree we can change his and Henry’s minds! Bring back the old HAIII!!!!!

  3. #3

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I'm guessing for a group buy we'd need to have at least enough buyers for an entire anodization batch to be done without dye, but I don't know the size of those batches.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
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  5. #5
    Flashaholic* neutralwhite's Avatar
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    sounds good Hogo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
    Malkoff Devices MD2 M61T, JetE17A Red AAA.

  6. #6

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
    If you do it, count me in! I would l would love a HAIII HDS... mismatching doesn’t bother me at all.

  7. #7

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
    There might be enough of us who are not bothered by mismatching. Maybe you could do the assembly so Henry doesn't have to look at them?
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  8. #8

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dan View Post
    There might be enough of us who are not bothered by mismatching. Maybe you could do the assembly so Henry doesn't have to look at them?
    Henry's the perfectionist. I'm the anal retentive one. I could do it in the dark, but all the flashlights around, I would be too tempted to turn one on.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    Henry's the perfectionist. I'm the anal retentive one. I could do it in the dark, but all the flashlights around, I would be too tempted to turn one on.
    You could do it blindfolded for all I care. I would still buy one... seriously though if you decide to do it automatically put me down for one.

  10. #10

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I would definitely be in for an HA - regardless of price!! I have a thing for natural HA.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I'd be in...
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    ^^ Count me in as well.. The time consuming part of black ano is applying the dye by hand - I would be willing to assemble my light from the individual parts 🤗

  13. #13
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I'm in for HA nat for sure!!! I don't mind any mismatching. Like on my old Surefires it actually adds to the charm.

    And the type III black is actually not as durable of a finish as natural because of the dye. So many lights are black type III only nowadays, I find it really redundant.
    ampdude

  14. #14

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by ampdude View Post
    I'm in for HA nat for sure!!! I don't mind any mismatching. Like on my old Surefires it actually adds to the charm.

    And the type III black is actually not as durable of a finish as natural because of the dye. So many lights are black type III only nowadays, I find it really redundant.
    Do you have a source for that information? I am not aware of any difference in durability from the dye so long as they are both type III.
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    I liked neutral tints before they were cool.

  15. #15

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Added poll.
    Hello darkness my old friend,
    I've come to talk with you again...
    I liked neutral tints before they were cool.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Dan View Post
    Do you have a source for that information? I am not aware of any difference in durability from the dye so long as they are both type III.
    Sorry I do not, I have noticed it through personal experience.

    I have been told by people in the industry over the years that the black dye makes the finish not as durable as the natural finish.

    I believe it because I've seen it with my own eyes.
    ampdude

  17. #17
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    The primary determinant of durability is thickness, which has nothing to do with presence or absence of dye.

    Thicker anodize is darker, if undyed, and thus tougher.

    Dyed anodize is darker, for any given thickness.

    Sealing the finished surface can however decrease the wear resistance, independent of the dye.
    Last edited by archimedes; 04-30-2018 at 10:18 PM.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    There is a major difference in quality of anodizing from shop to shop. If you are comparing HA type III class I to class II, but using say the original HA III type 1 Surefire, then comparing those to Chinese Type III class 2, yes, the quality will be very different. It has nothing to do with the dye and everything to do with the anodizer.

    If type III class 1 was actually stronger, then the upper and lower receiver on an M4 and M16 would be done in Class 1, not class 2 as is specified on the contract drawings for those manufacturers who have produced those weapons for the U.S. Military. I don't believe they specified this because they don't like the color green or gray and the U.S. military wouldn't have specified it if it were not as strong.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    There is a major difference in quality of anodizing from shop to shop. If you are comparing HA type III class I to class II, but using say the original HA III type 1 Surefire, then comparing those to Chinese Type III class 2, yes, the quality will be very different. It has nothing to do with the dye and everything to do with the anodizer.

    If type III class 1 was actually stronger, then the upper and lower receiver on an M4 and M16 would be done in Class 1, not class 2 as is specified on the contract drawings for those manufacturers who have produced those weapons for the U.S. Military. I don't believe they specified this because they don't like the color green or gray and the U.S. military wouldn't have specified it if it were not as strong.
    Well, being in the U.S. military and having experience with that I'll have to take issue with that comment as the government does not always purchase the best, they purchase the best value for the mission requirements. I have plenty of experience with paying government contracts, and fiscal law as well to know this for a fact.

    I do believe that regardless of the thickness of the anodizing, the black dye does indeed lend a certain amount of overall weakness to the final finish.

    In layman's terms I think you have to make black dye type III finish thicker in order to make it stronger than type III natural finish. It only seems logical.
    Last edited by ampdude; 04-30-2018 at 11:22 PM.
    ampdude

  20. #20

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by ampdude View Post
    Well, being in the U.S. military and having experience with that I'll have to take issue with that comment as the government does not always purchase the best, they purchase the best value for the mission requirements. I have plenty of experience with paying government contracts, and fiscal law as well to know this for a fact.

    I do believe that regardless of the thickness of the anodizing, the black dye does indeed lend a certain amount of overall weakness to the final finish.

    In layman's terms I think you have to make black dye type III finish thicker in order to make it stronger than type III natural finish. It only seems logical.
    The government buys from the lowest bidder (or the one with compromising photos of a senator). The entire reason for military specification is so that the lowest bidder builds whatever it is to the specs on the drawing so that corners don't get cut. for MIL-A-8625 Type III Class 1 and 2 the thickness should be 2 mils. I've always said that Milspec seems to mean more to civilians than it does to anyone actually serving and means less to Marines because we never got issued anything until the army wore it out. But the spec is there so that more than one company can produce the same gear.

    What you are failing to realize that it isn't the dye that is making the anodizing weak, it is the company cutting corners on the anodizing thickness which is much easier to hide when black dye is used. If you are making this comparison based on Chinese lights that claim to have MIL-A-8635 Type III Class 2, which states a thickness of 2 mills, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

    There is a difference in saying Type III class 2 and simply saying hard anodized type III, or even Military type II HA. That's marketing. Most lights don't have a 2 mil thickness. Compare the anodize on an Elzetta, Gemtech suppressor, HDS, or true 2 mil thickness HA on a receiver. Cheap products have thin anodizing as a way to cut corners, and class 2 helps to hide this, but if done properly to the actual MIL-A-8625 Type III Class 2, it will be 2 mils thick, which most of the cheap and even the not so cheap lights are not actually doing. Considering the dishonesty in output from manufacturers, do you really think they are being honest about the anodizing as well? That would be pretty naive.
    Last edited by Hogokansatsukan; 05-01-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Oh, I agree. You've made a very good point. I still think that there could be something at play though when the dye is added that effects the overall strength of the anodizing. If so many parts per whatever is black dye instead of anodizing, you would think that would factor into the overall strength of the anodize, all else being equal. Such as true 2mm black vs. true 2mm Nat anodize.
    ampdude

  22. #22

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by ampdude View Post
    Oh, I agree. You've made a very good point. I still think that there could be something at play though when the dye is added that effects the overall strength of the anodizing. If so many parts per whatever is black dye instead of anodizing, you would think that would factor into the overall strength of the anodize, all else being equal. Such as true 2mm black vs. true 2mm Nat anodize.
    Yes, but let me explain how the dye works. The dye is not included in the acid bath. The aluminum is first anodized which is basically just oxidizing the outer aluminum into aluminum oxide. This is changing the surface of the aluminum, both "growing" for lack of a better tern, into the aluminum and at the same time growing out from the surface in an equal proportion. In the case of a tube, the diameter will actually increase (which is important to note when dealing with tolerances). The aluminum oxide is not solid, but is filled with pores. Yes, very tiny little holes. At this point, you have Class 1. In order to get class 2, the part is now dipped in the dye which fills these pores. Then it is again dipped in a solution that seals the pores, thus trapping the dye in them. In Class 1, it will often get sealed as well, but this time without the dye in the pores.

    There are some other reasons for moving away from Class 1, besides it being easier to cover up thin anodize, and that is that many flashlight manufacturers moved from 6061 to 7075 grade aluminum. 7075 can get a more bronze look to the anodizing while 6061 gets that nice dark green/gray if anodized to actual mil spec thickness. I don't mean to get into a discussion of 7075 vs. 6061 as they have different properties, both good and bad, depending on what the intended use is, but 6061 does anodize and look much better when done properly than does 7075 (my opinion, but if you like that dark green look, and I know I do, 6061 will get you there).

    I have many lights, and I really wish I had kept my old natural HA Surefire E2E... I loved the look of that natural HA, and still do. If you look at photos of the original HDS lights (the ones without the bezel) like the EDC Basic or Ultimate, you will see the anodizing is a nice dark green. Then when you see the first production run of NovaTac... light gray, light green... crappo anodizing (and I screamed about it. Henry had already left NovaTac at that point and that's one area corners got cut much to my dismay). The second run from NT was... yep... Class 2.

    The current HDS have MIL-A-8625F Type III Class 2, which is specified on the drawings. Yesterday we received some new heads from our machinist and we spent a good deal of time checking them over carefully. Everything from making sure the thread tolerances were in spec included the tiny screw holes no one ever sees after the electronics are added, how much current loss (there is always some) in the head where the threads are not anodized, and the anodize itself. We check carefully because if it is not in spec, we send them back. It was the first time for this machinist to do these heads though he has done other parts for us. They were absolutely perfect. The same day, I scrapped 464 reflectors because they didn't make the cut, but that wasn't the machinist, that was the vacuum reflective coating.
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  23. #23
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    Thumbs up Re: HDS Natural HA

    Yea, I remember my old HDS back in 2007. I think it was a 42XT. What a great anodizing that was, it was like an old school Surefire from 2000-2001ish.

    And Random Dan, thanks for posting this thread!
    ampdude

  24. #24
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I didn't even know about this thread until I visited the group buy today.

    I voted yes to Natural, I'm always in for something different from what is currently available.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I am interested in the natural but want to see how much more these would cost over the currently available lights. My lights are all users so I dont care about any mismatch but I do like the Natural look.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by tech25 View Post
    I am interested in the natural but want to see how much more these would cost over the currently available lights. My lights are all users so I dont care about any mismatch but I do like the Natural look.
    Seriously dude? You either want something or you don't. It's already a high priced light, fork over a little more for what you really want. You remind me of the guys who buy a $2,000 pistol and then buy a $19.99 Uncle Mike's holster to carry it around in, instead of something decent.. That's just not right.
    ampdude

  27. #27
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I like the Natural look but it is not something that I must have. I am a fan of HDS regardless of what color they are. I look for features like UI, tint, longevity etc. For me, the cost over the current lights is a part to factor in.

    In your analogy, I would be the guy who is buying an Ed Brown and wants to know how much it would be to have it in black nitride...

  28. #28
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    I guess part of it is also, I had one of the originals back in the day. And seeing as everything is all black nowadays, it would be a refreshing throwback. I'm old school like that.
    ampdude

  29. #29

    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Quote Originally Posted by tech25 View Post
    I like the Natural look but it is not something that I must have. I am a fan of HDS regardless of what color they are. I look for features like UI, tint, longevity etc. For me, the cost over the current lights is a part to factor in.

    In your analogy, I would be the guy who is buying an Ed Brown and wants to know how much it would be to have it in black nitride...
    No, no! Parkerized! What can I say... I like parkerized guns that have that "worn" look.
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: HDS Natural HA

    Mangense (greenish) Phosphate Parkerize 60's Gov issue 1911A1 yep, worn out finish, looks like your jeep ☺

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