Thermal regulation making runtime charts worthless?

Howdy,

its been a while since i bought a new flashlight, i pretty much just buy Fenix lights. that said i was disappointed after picking up a HP30R, my last purchase was a ld22 from 5 years ago.

Now i am seeing these lights all thermally lower there power level after just minutes of use, yet show run times in hours. how is anyone suppose to know how long a light will run at the lumens i need for the entire time? it was very hard trying to figure which light is an actually improvement if they all lower there lumens after only a couple minutes. maybe i am a weird guy but sometimes i run my entire battery pack dead without every turning the light off.


anyone else feel like the charts are kind of useless now for runtimes in the high or turbo lines.

looking at the lanterns by fenix the cl20r has better run times then the cl25r, yet has half the size battery. it makes it very very hard.

One reason I have quite a few Malkoffs. No turbo modes that last only a few minutes. For high power lights, I know turbo/max is unsustainable. I look at the medium output that meet my needs.

The FL1 standard was developed with lights that lose output as the batteries drain in mind, so output is measured at 30 seconds, and runtime is cut off at 10% of that. Currently we have lights that:

• Can maintain 100% output regardless of battery status (up to a low-voltage stepdown and/or shutoff)
• Have output that depends on battery voltage in all modes
• Have output that's stable until the battery hits a certain point, then starts dropping (sometimes the max mode is never stable)

combined with:

• No programmed output reduction
• Reduced output after a fixed period of time
• Dropping to a lower output when a specific temperature is reached, and not automatically increasing again if the temperature drops
• Continuous, automatic adjustment of output in response to temperature

The FL1 output/runtime chart isn't enough to know how the light will behave. Runtime graphs provide more information, and some manufacturers offer them (Fenix does for most of their newer stuff), but even those don't tell the full story. I do more testing in my reviews, including steadily more extreme cooling measures until I can keep lights with sensors from stepping down at all, and cooling an overheated light to see if output increases.

In short, read a review if you want details.

The problem is the lumen race is still on. So manufacturers are trying to hit big numbers. The new TM10K light had a goal set to reach 10,000 lumens. But 7 seconds is far from continuous use. The light can probably put out 600-800 lumens continuously on its high setting which is adjustable in 100 lumen increments between 400-2000 lumens... However at settings above 800 lumens thermal regulation will probably step in and intervene eventually.

Most of the lights you are talking about like Fenix, Olight are not using thermal regulation just dumb timers.

Trust but verify, just like always.

cave dave said:

Most of the lights you are talking about like Fenix, Olight are not using thermal regulation just dumb timers.

Trust but verify, just like always.

Click to expand...

appears to be a combination of both, timers and thermal regulation. i hooked my HP30R up to a bench PSU that shows current use. even with no thermal activation the lights are stepping down, even on MED power, which is very disappointing. i guess they are just doing it to extend run times on the charts

did fenix always do this? i never went this far with my light before, i have a hp10 that i was trying to upgrade from.

You need to get something from Mr. Malkoff.
If he says it puts out 900:m it puts out 900Lm until the cells curl up and die.
It's worth it in the long run, as you end up with fewer lights, amd those lights don't tend to break.
P

peter yetman said:

You need to get something from Mr. Malkoff.
If he says it puts out 900:m it puts out 900Lm until the cells curl up and die.
It's worth it in the long run, as you end up with fewer lights, amd those lights don't tend to break.
P

Click to expand...

I have never had a single fenix light die and i use them constantly, my head lamps prolly have over 1000 hours on them.

Run time charts as a whole are worthless if there is any kind of ramp down. It's unrealistic anyone here would turn any light on and run it to dead. My olight M1T says primary cr123 beats out rcr123 cells. Only problem is I use it 4-7 minutes at a time several times every night. The primary cells pull all 500 lumens about 10 minutes less. Even then it's not hitting the full 500 towards the end. More like the ramp down lumens of 300 for the last ten minutes and around 40 lumens for about 15-20 minutes before dead. Rcr123 cells pull harder longer and just won't run anymore at any lumens. I hate fade so I'll take the rcr cell. But the chart says primaries run twice as long. Not for realistic use. I kinda figured it would be that way based on past experience.

If if I need long throw and lots of lumens I grab an appropriate light. Not a pocket rocket with short run times on max lumens. My nitecore MT40GT throws its 90 lumen mode so good I can ID deer at a measured 320 yards.

Right tool for the job. It'll run 1.25 days at that setting. For a working light, candela is far more important. My 177 lumen two C cell maglite runs forever and the candela makes it a better working light than the S1R. My pelican 3310 has awesome throw and a beautiful neutralish tint to it. Far better working light than my high lumen show off on paper spec lights.

Just use run time charts to get an idea. If you've used any lights for any period of time you'll know how it will go real world.

Been a long time since I saw anyone do a runtime chart..

StarHalo said:

Been a long time since I saw anyone do a runtime chart..

Click to expand...

Do you mean by CPF members ? Or by flashlight producers ?

@INFRNL has been doing Malkoff runtime charts nearly non-stop recently ....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...Malkoff-Runtime-Graphs-CR123-Alkaline-Comparo

Personally I'm finding this whole, discussion rather amusing since I advocated having a different set of parameters for measuring runtime years ago when this whole lumen race started.

a few people agreed, but mostly I just got dismissed as a solution in search of a problem

then again that's how it was back in the old days as well when a small group of us talked about wanting some measurement standards in the first place and the general populace, and especially the manufacturers, said "why bother, it's just a flashlight"

Boris74 said:

It's unrealistic anyone here would turn any light on and run it to dead.

Click to expand...

Speak for yourself, my HP30R which i got monday already has 20 hours on it. and ramping down at 10 minutes is ridiculous. if i run it in turbo for both lamps, its even less then that, then the lamp is dropping from 1750, to less then 600, you think you notice that? absolutely. when its dark here, its nothing for me to run the head lamp over 6 hours in one shot if im outside. not everyone has shelf queens.

It's unrealistic anyone here would turn any light on and run it to dead.

Click to expand...

I run lights to dead often[1]. I'll run my headlamp on a higher setting than I need to during a night hike because I can (having thought to bring a spare battery). More than once I've been somewhere with insufficient interior lighting and left a 3x or 4x 18650 light running for hours. My 1xAAA lights, unsurprisingly run out of battery quickly.

I consider timed stepdowns on lights over about $40 unacceptable. Of course, a lot of lights will need some degree of thermal regulation. Part of it is the continuing numbers contest between manufacturers, but I do find bursty turbo modes useful. If I see something in the distance I can't identify, being able to step up the output for a minute is great.

[1] Dead meaning the LVP shuts it off, of course. Over-discharging batteries is bad.

LittleBill said:

Speak for yourself, my HP30R which i got monday already has 20 hours on it. and ramping down at 10 minutes is ridiculous. if i run it in turbo for both lamps, its even less then that, then the lamp is dropping from 1750, to less then 600, you think you notice that? absolutely. when its dark here, its nothing for me to run the head lamp over 6 hours in one shot if im outside. not everyone has shelf queens.

Click to expand...

depends on your uses. I run my H1R nightly as well and treed raccoons are easily identified and killed on the 15 lumen mode and the H1R isn't a thrower. I don't need to blast them with 600 lumens. At 15 lumens I can fully ID the animal and use my open sights on the 22. If youre doing search and rescue, as it sounds from your post then get the right light for the job. I find the MT40GT utilizes 90 lumens at its high candela extremely well. I crank it up to 1000 if need be and 90 well thrown lumens will run 1.25 days. So H1R for up close don't need blinding lumens Work and high candela long running no step down lumens with the option of sun mode. Ive got it figured out. More lumens running longer isn't the answer either.