Your view of lights with non-replaceable, built-in batteries

Wondering all of your thoughts on lights with non-replaceable, built-in batteries. Nitecore in particular has been coming out with a good number of these, but I see them from other vendors as well. One of many examples: https://flashlight.nitecore.com/product/lr10

My understanding, and experience, is that even with proper care and feeding, li ion batteries lose as much as 50% of their capacity after 2 years (maybe things are better now?); practical lifetime seems like 4-ish. Meanwhile, I sometimes use my lights for years and years, and when "retired", pass them to my kids for them to use. So I've had an internal struggle on lights with non-replaceable batteries. In my cynical moods, I think of them as planned obsolescence at best, an unattractive artifact of disposable culture at worst. Other times, I find intriguing products with built-in batteries and try to rationalize myself into getting them I don't have any lights currently with built-in-only batteries (although I do have a Nitecore lantern that's dual-fuel, built-in or external), but am thinking that if I do pick one up, I'll stick with the $50, and maybe even <$30 price range -- why spend a lot on a light that have maddeningly shorter runtimes as time goes on?

What do you think? Are you buying these types of lights? Am I mis-judging li ion lifetimes?

Personally, I tend to avoid lights with built-in batteries, especially if they can't be substituted with regular cells (when giving up some feature such as magnetic charging). However, I think for most people, the fear of the battery dying is a bit overblown. Good cells (assuming the light uses them) should last for 10 years or more, assuming decent care. They will lose some capacity (perhaps 30%), and internal resistance will rise so they won't be able to provide as much current, but your lights should still work. And, frankly, after 10 years, you will likely have moved on to something better by then.

If you use the light every day, and recharge it every day or two, then the battery will likely only last a couple of years. Much like a smartphone. So, for flashaholics, a built-in battery may be a concern. Then again, a flashaholic likely has many lights to play with, so might not use it that much.

There are some circumstances where a built-in battery makes sense. For extremely high-powered lights, a battery pack may be necessary to keep contact resistance to a bare minimum. And perhaps to ensure safety, too.

I think I'm possibly more cynical than you, Joe.
I haven't bought any lights that have non replaceable batteries, but I do look at them, and at the lower end of the price scale, wonder if the light is likely to outlast the cells. The price of the Surefire ones over here would put anyone off buying them, if they only last a couple of years.
Ecology wise, I dislike the fact that I have to throw away the unit just because the cells have failed.
In fact, I've just convinced myself that I'll never buy such a thing, thank you for focussing my mind.
P

For the most part, I am in agreement with you all. But I must admit, I have a few lights like that, mainly Nitecore Tubes and a couple Tips. But I'm told if I really want to get hardcore, I can replace the cells in those lights. For me, they are light use, never drained, lights that should last a long time given my usage pattern. Other than that, all of my battery powered devices use replaceable cells. I will admit that I have a portable radio that will let me recharge in situ, but that's the only one.
All told, it would have to be a pretty darn important need for me to buy a light (or any device) with a non-replaceable battery.

As already alluded to above the notion of Non-Replaceable can mean different things to different people.
I plan on changing batteries on sealed units like this as I need to but this is already what I do every day so YMMV clearly.

That said I prefer removable batteries usually from a practical standpoint of a light that I need to do work with going dead and I do not have time to wait while charging to keep going.

So I am OK with getting certain lights ,mostly smaller Keychain Duty type lights with sealed cells as I rarely am using these for work but instead short bursts that will not wear one down while in use.

Evidently SureFire regards the SideKick which a few of us bought heavily discounted recently as disposable once the battery no longer charges?
Odd coming from them to me but if we can get the battery somewhere it should be a pretty quick repair to get it going again too.

I also have been buying the Nitecore tiny lights and understand that the batteries for these will be around when needed so I am not too worried.
I got the TUP Yesterday actually and it is a pretty unusual and amazing light it seems and the OLED Display I have a feeling is going to be something to look forward to in lights in the near future?
If the light does accurately estimate runtime from its battery voltage readings it could be a pretty worthwhile feature to have for me!

It is sort of hard to figure out how to carry but I love mine so far too!

Came across a cutting irony lightly researching the origin of disposable products.

Hannah Montague of Troy wearied of having to wash her husband Orlando's shirts when only the collar was dirty. So one day in 1827, she snipped off a collar, laundered it, and then sewed it back on, creating the world's first detachable collar.

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Metaphorically speaking, the shirt could be a flashlight and the collar batteries. To get to the disposable electronic device, there is some other product evolution happening, the design philosophy of the "closed" product.

I remember owning and using a disposable flashlight when I was young. It was not a cylander, but like a pack held like a gun with an elongated elipse-shaped reflector. I remember keeping it long after it was no longer working for dead batteries, astounded by what a waste it was... probably equating weight to worth because it was heavy for its size.

But today I wonder if applied technology is moving so fast, that after a couple years, a new LED light may become far less relevant than future models if not obsolete. Still, unless there is some near Star Trek-like recycling ability, it seems like such a waste because of how novel even these things are, espescially now considering the amount of design and engineering, manufacturing ramp-up... all this creativity and energy expended for a product intended to go into a landfill in 5 years. Sadly, making garbage generates more money, while you can only sell so many rugged products designed to last before everyone already has one (why would you need two Everlasting Gobstoppers?).

Joe Talmadge said:

In my cynical moods, I think of them as planned obsolescence at best, an unattractive artifact of disposable culture at worst.

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Well said. I don't think this viewpoint could be articulated any better. The struggle that I have with mobile phones is that I'm regularly forced to upgrade because someone else, someone very rich, planned the obsolescence of my iPhone. It's simply not the case that I can buy a quality phone and expect to keep it for the rest of my life.

I have more choices when it comes to my flashlight hobby. I prefer lights with replaceable batteries. I'm happier still if I can replace other parts, like lenses and switches.

peter yetman said:

In fact, I've just convinced myself that I'll never buy such a thing, thank you for focussing my mind.

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That's actually what I was going for! I'm hoping this thread gets me off the fence, to one side or the other. Either consider these types of lights without worry about the internal battery, or just rule them out... with maybe exceptions for very inexpensive lights

AVservice said:

I got the TUP Yesterday actually and it is a pretty unusual and amazing light it seems and the OLED Display I have a feeling is going to be something to look forward to in lights in the near future?

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This is actually the exact light that got me re-thinking this, again, this morning! A couple of reviews that complained about how incredibly easy it is to hit the buttons ("Just picking the light up I accidentally turn it off" kind of thing) pulled me off the notion, but until then, I was feeling pretty compelled to get it, with reservations only about the non-replaceable battery. The light in my collection that it would replace -- Olight S1 -- does have a re-chargeable battery.

WalkIntoTheLight said:

They will lose some capacity (perhaps 30%), and internal resistance will rise so they won't be able to provide as much current,.... frankly, after 10 years, you will likely have moved on to something better by then.

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30% over 10 years (assuming monthly recharges instead of daily) is much, much better than I thought it would be. I thought just time alone, and the fact that it's spending a good deal of its life 100% charged (at least in between uses) would mean maybe 2 years to 30% loss. But this is more encouraging.

You know, I was going to be in raging agreement with that last part. My 4 most-used lights are all less than 3 years old. But, the light in my kitchen (Novatac), on my bedstand (E1 body with custom head), the one I lend out to friends (Fenix P1D??), and some I lent my kids, all used a LOT, are all at least 5 years old and I think some are older than 10! I do tend to turn over my carry lights, and do retire some of my older lights, but a lot are pressed into other service for years and years. I might have a weird usage pattern, but man, I'm really glad all of those lights are still usable.

The TUP buttons are stupidly easy to engage but then so is the Lockout function on the light and the Unlock sequence does seem to be decent as a deterrent to pocket roasting I think.
I stopped carrying all other Nitecores of the type because they all came on by themselves just being in my pocket but the Lockout here is different requiring 2 timed presses although I have not tried the light this way in pocket yet to be honest for any length of time.

The TUP is about the exact same size as an S1 too!
And the S1 also always turns on in my pocket somehow as well?

The ZL on the other hand has no Lockout but NEVER turns itself on? and so this is what I carry if I am wearing pants!
I also wonder just how low the low setting is in my TUP as last night I tried it for the middle of the night run and it was insane how bright it was compared to the SC52w on any low setting almost?

Joe Talmadge said:

That's actually what I was going for! I'm hoping this thread gets me off the fence, to one side or the other. Either consider these types of lights without worry about the internal battery, or just rule them out... with maybe exceptions for very inexpensive lights



This is actually the exact light that got me re-thinking this, again, this morning! A couple of reviews that complained about how incredibly easy it is to hit the buttons ("Just picking the light up I accidentally turn it off" kind of thing) pulled me off the notion, but until then, I was feeling pretty compelled to get it, with reservations only about the non-replaceable battery. The light in my collection that it would replace -- Olight S1 -- does have a re-chargeable battery.



30% over 10 years (assuming monthly recharges instead of daily) is much, much better than I thought it would be. I thought just time alone, and the fact that it's spending a good deal of its life 100% charged (at least in between uses) would mean maybe 2 years to 30% loss. But this is more encouraging.

You know, I was going to be in raging agreement with that last part. My 4 most-used lights are all less than 3 years old. But, the light in my kitchen (Novatac), on my bedstand (E1 body with custom head), the one I lend out to friends (Fenix P1D??), and some I lent my kids, all used a LOT, are all at least 5 years old and I think some are older than 10! I do tend to turn over my carry lights, and do retire some of my older lights, but a lot are pressed into other service for years and years. I might have a weird usage pattern, but man, I'm really glad all of those lights are still usable.

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Personally, I am on the fence about lights with non-replaceable batteries. In the past, I stayed away from them for the exact reasons that some have mentioned in this thread.

But, I decided I needed to be open-minded and purchased a couple of the Nitecore TIPs, some reasons being that the form factor is tiny and recharging by USB is convenient and a bonus especially if I have forgotten to charge it for awhile. That said, the TIP that I has turned on in my pocket several times, which is extremely annoying, to the point where I replaced it with another light with non-replaceable batteries, the Lumintop Geek.

My observations after having these lights for about a year... I can't accept that some of these lights do not have a proper lockout, my one TIP with high CRI that I charge up every 6 mths has now died and I never even EDC'd it. I gave another TIP to a friend and he really likes it and told me that it has never turned on by itself. The Lumintop Geek is a bit larger than I like, much bigger than say, a AAA light. But, it does have a proper lockout and it's a bit more difficult to turn on accidentally.

So... while they can be small, convenient to charge (with micro USB) and brightness is very good for such a small form factor, i still do not entirely trust them. As CPF'ers like to say... 2 is 1 and 1 is none. I still carry a SF C2 in my courier bag and I plan to, once again, carry my SF Titan Plus as a backup.

One last note: Judging from reviews of the TIP and TUP, water-resistance on these types of lights seem to be questionable, perhaps they can only be considered splash-proof... so another reason to have a proper EDC or a backup.

LogansRun said:

My observations after having these lights for about a year... I can't accept that some of these lights do not have a proper lockout, my one TIP with high CRI that I charge up every 6 mths has now died and I never even EDC'd it.

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Nitecore is incapable of designing anything with low parasitic drain. It's like every product they make will self-drain within a few weeks if left alone. That's not an exaggeration, they are among the worst.

So many of NItecore's lights are so intriguing, and then there's one important detail they always blow ... buttons that get pressed to easily, cumbersome UIs (sometimes to make up for bad buttons), a killer tactical light that has a switch delay (really NItecore????). They could rename themselves Almost Awesome

I buy my flashlights for life (or try to, at least). I made the mistake of buying the Surefire Sidekick, drawn by its name and features. Had I thought more than 2 minutes about it I would have passed. Oh well. I don't like the idea of a flashlight being thrown out after a few years.

Can't stand them. Cells outdate eventually, though LEDs improve during that time, I still may want to use the light or pass it onto someone else. Limits "spare battery" options, unless u buy another battery pack from the get go, if even available.

I've just passed on so many lights because of this. For me it's a deal killer almost always.

Aside from limited lifetime, another issue with nonremovable batteries is that batteries must be recharged before the light can be used again. You cannot simply drop in a fresh battery and go on your merry way. Recharging is inevitably slow and requires that you carry a charger. This makes lights with nonreplaceable batteries FAR less desirable in situations where charging is not feasible.

I have had a few TUBE's die, but not much of a loss tbh, more frustrating than anything and probably not the battery anyway. I think built in is more user friendly where there are multiple cells, like 6 or 8 x 18650's for example. Granted its a dear do come time of replacing, but its more convenient than swapping out 8 cells every time and charging(done this with the tk75 carriers and a big pita!). So certain applications i get, as for life, who knows but i still have 18650 cells probably a decade old. For lights with 4 cells and under, i prefer to be given the choice . Will cells outlast the LED's, not in life time but actually more in what we want. Just look back int he last 10 yrs.................to the choices we have today, be it ct/cri/led choices.

One of the biggest down sides i see, is recharging, The light is of no use unless you have a spare pack and charge away from the light. So if you have to charge in the light, the flexibility is taken away substantially. I am also not keen on the idea of charging single 18650/26650 cells in a light, any issue and its contained (not that i have had one, but although rare, its still a possibility). When out of the light in a charger, you could get audible or visual warnings and act in time.

Pros/cons i find,but as a preference with single cell lights, having a user serviceable(replaceable) battery is a huge plus. As one example, the olight H2r which can be charged in the lamp. This feature is useless for me in my work application. I swap out the cell, charge , and use with fresh to be able to use any time. Now if away camping, the USB charge option might be of use, but again it would take away its flexibility . But may give convenience of packing light and not having to take an extra charger.

I too bought a Surefire Sidekick(massive discount), knowing it will eventually be destroyed when I decide to prove I can outsmart Surefire's Engineers and disassemble it(please don't ask "so how has that worked for you in the past"?)..,
Another pet peeve, just to piggy back on this thread: small keychain lights that have such high parasitic drain that even if the batteries are accessible they have to be replaced every 12-16 months no matter what. I am thinking of one that is similar in design to the MecArmy SGN3-the MecArmy has no parasitic drain but the model by another maker can drain a full charge to empty in less than 14 days....
I have had one single Tube die...but with 5 models in use for over a few years I am not particularly upset. My all time favorite is the Steve Ku (Velano Concepts) Quantum DD; the replaceable 10180 Battery and 120 Lumen variable output makes it an EDC for my keyring on an ad infinitum basis...

Not my preference but for keychain type lights it's fine. If I get a few years out of them I'm happy.

I think my Fenix UC01 is maybe 2 and 1/2 years old and works fine. I've had many Tubes as well and most seem to die on me. Although, I have one still working after a few years.

Most recently I got a Nitecore Tup. Nice light but time will tell if it lasts I guess.

I think I'm mostly convinced to mostly avoid lights with built-in non-replaceable batteries, unless they're not too expensive and provide some really unique value I couldn't find in another light. Even if the batteries last longer than I thought they did, the more I think about it the more it bugs me, that a light would be made to be disposable -- I don't even know how easy it is to recycle these, the way I recycle standalone batteries

Looks like my $30 winter edition tip is disposable after only a month worth of use. Anything expensive, i buy from Vinh. At least he can rebuild the battery pack.