14500 lith/alk/nimh lights question

I was looking at the lumintop tool light recently. I've always wanted a 14500 light. A small little pocket rocket.

But, I was wondering if it and lights like it detect the li-ion battery? Do I need to use a protected cell? My worry is that it will run my cell to 0.9V or something.

This might be a stupid question but I was just curious. I've never used a "dual-fuel" type light before.

Buy a very good quality cell, check/charge it often, don't leave it on high and walk off. I imagine it will get muey calor very quickly.

What? I was asking if it was going to run my cell below 3.0 volts. I don't usually use protected cells. I was wondering if I should in this light because I'm not sure if it will stop at 2.9-3v or keep depleting the cell.

If the manufacturer states that 14500 is supported, and doesn't mention to "only use protected cells"... then the light SHOULD have voltage protection. But you are trusting the manufacturer and you should probably test it by leaving the light on low and when it shuts off, check the voltage of the cell.

From my understanding, running the voltage too low on a single cell li-ion isn't the problem... but trying to RECHARGE the overly depleted cell is bad news.

Unless thoroughly tested/trusted, I would use a quality protected cell... just make sure it fits. I doubt the battery protection circuit is going to limit the current draw on this light?

The only unprotected li-ion cells I use are in my Zebralights... protected cells won't fit and would limit the current... but I trust their circuitry, and I still almost always charge the cells when they are anywhere near 50%.

Based on a very quick search, it appears that the Lumintop Tool does NOT have low voltage protection... so I would definitely use a protected cell.

If this information is true and up-to-date... then the light does not truly support 14500 cells in my opinion.

I know there is info out there I just know there is a Tool 2.0 and wasn't sure. I feel like this is pretty important information.

I also, for the most part, only use zebralights.

I usually charge my cells at around 3.2-3.6. I'm more worried about the cell losing capacity if it's discharged to low.

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you use a protected 14500? If it fits and doesn't limit the light's output, then it seems like a good idea, even if it is redundant (which it sounds like it probably isn't). I see no down side, unless you already own a significant amount of unprotected 14500 cells that you want to use.

Considering the light is designed to work with AA cells (and 14500), I would be even more persuaded to use only protected 14500 cells.

holygeez03 said:

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't you use a protected 14500? If it fits and doesn't limit the light's output, then it seems like a good idea, even if it is redundant (which it sounds like it probably isn't). I see no down side, unless you already own a significant amount of unprotected 14500 cells that you want to use.

Considering the light is designed to work with AA cells (and 14500), I would be even more persuaded to use only protected 14500 cells.

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If a light has over discharge protection then the cell's added protection circuit is a liability. The PCB can be crushed by impact, the kapton tape separating the strip and can negative can disintegrate and become damage leading to a short, the wrapping can become damage exposing the positive strip to the light body. Whole ton of reasons to prefer in driver over discharge protection.

If you are concerned about those potential hazards, then I would definitely steer clear of any light that is not CLEARLY protected and verified by lots of advanced users. Or at least, I would not use li-ion in it...

It appears to me that the Lumintop is more in the category of: "3.7 - 4.2 volts? Yeah, they'll work!"

I've got a couple of the titanium FireFly lights that are multifuel.
Using a 14500, the light is very bright. Using a alkaline AA battery, not quite as bright, but fairly long run time.
Using a NiMH battery, slightly dimmer than the AA, but no worries about alkaline puking inside the light.

I've been using Efest 14500 cells in 800mAH rating. The light gets used a couple of minutes a day and I charge about once a month.

If this is a single-cell light, personally I wouldn't worry about using a protected cell even if the light doesn't have its own low-voltage protection. Unless the light uses a boost-driver (which is unlikely unless its using a high-voltage emitter like a XHP35), you're going to notice the battery is low well before it gets down to any unsafe level. It probably won't even work below 2.8v or somewhere around there.

Your main risk is if you leave the light on, then walk away and forget about it. In that case, the driver might continue to drain the battery even if the LED no longer lights.

Check the cell voltage before you charge, if you're unsure about it. If it's under 2.5v, charge very slowly at first. If it's under 1.0v, it's probably best not to try to charge it at all. Those voltages may vary, depending on manufacturer and cell type, but I'm just going on some of Samsung's notes.

That said, if this is a light for a kid that might just leave it on and walk away, I'd use a protected cell for that.

staticx57 said:

If a light has over discharge protection then the cell's added protection circuit is a liability. The PCB can be crushed by impact, the kapton tape separating the strip and can negative can disintegrate and become damage leading to a short, the wrapping can become damage exposing the positive strip to the light body. Whole ton of reasons to prefer in driver over discharge protection.

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The negative end of mine is getting dented. It too tight a fit. I'd prefer in driver protection so the unprotected cells are the same length.

I'd recommend the EagleTac 14500 protected batteries, there usually right at 51mm in length, I have many Olight and Nitecore protected batteries and they are all just a bit to long for my lights that accept 14500 cells. The only place I have found them available is at illuminationgear.com

holygeez03 said:

The only unprotected li-ion cells I use are in my Zebralights... protected cells won't fit and would limit the current... but I trust their circuitry, and I still almost always charge the cells when they are anywhere near 50%.

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I run protected 14500 cells (Fenix ARB-L14-800, 52 mm) in my ZL SC52 L2 with no fitment issues. Am I doing something wrong? What ZLs are you running 14500s in?My SC53s say no 14500s. Still a bit new to quality lights so still learning a lot every day.
- Thanks!

The unprotected cells I am referring to are 18650 and most newer ZL's won't fit a protected 18650.

I have a H52Fw and a SC52w with protected 14500 cells in them.

WalkIntoTheLight said:

That said, if this is a light for a kid that might just leave it on and walk away, I'd use a protected cell for that.

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If that is the case I would stay with NiMH AA cells. The output should be enough for them, and you don't run the risk of ruining the cell by draining it too far.

JoeRodge said:

I was looking at the lumintop tool light recently. I've always wanted a 14500 light. A small little pocket rocket.

But, I was wondering if it and lights like it detect the li-ion battery? Do I need to use a protected cell? My worry is that it will run my cell to 0.9V or something.

This might be a stupid question but I was just curious. I've never used a "dual-fuel" type light before.

Click to expand...

In my (limited) experience, the design of the typical single-cell dual-fuel LED driver provides low voltage protection. The operation of these seems to effectively be parallel buck and boost drivers. The buck section cuts out somewhere around recommended Li-ion minimum operating voltage of ~3V (conveniently, modern LED Vf). The boost section is optimized around typical ~1.5V alkaline/NiMH/Li-primary and won't run much higher than ~2V. So the feedback to the user once your Li-ion cell(s) drop too low is that the light won't work. I've experimented with this using a Manker multi-fuel light - it won't operate with some funky BatteryStation Li-primary cells that still read ~2.2V on my DMM.

This concept extends to 2x and 4x cell lights so long as the LED Vf (or summed Vf for multi-LED lights) steps up by 3V per cell; it's how my 4xAA Manker operates with a 12V XHP35.

There's still the opportunity to over-discharge a 14500 in such a light, but that requires neglect over time - i.e. leaving it in the light for tens of months as quiescent currents into the driver lower its voltage. But that's little different from storing a protected cell for years without cycling or recharge - the protection circuit itself will slowly discharge the cell over time until it bottoms out.

In my mind, a major point of multi-fuel lights is to take advantage of the staggering amounts of power that high-discharge li-ion can offer in a small package: with ~triple the voltage of NiMH and a greater C rate, high-discharge 14500s can indeed realize pocket rocket performance. Of course, this will be short bursts due to the realities of dumping tens of watts into such a small package, thus like most small lights the sustained performance will be far more modest and in line with the power-delivery limitations of alkaline/NiMH - from what I've seen the main difference is the "turbo" setting with modes otherwise the same between cell chemistries.

JoeRodge said:

What? I was asking if it was going to run my cell below 3.0 volts. I don't usually use protected cells. I was wondering if I should in this light because I'm not sure if it will stop at 2.9-3v or keep depleting the cell.

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Yes it will run the cell below 3 volts because I've done it , I once ran a 14500 down to 1.something volts ,I always use protected cells in the AA tool & the jet beam mk1 , I only use my unprotected cells in my zebra lights now.

holygeez03 said:

The unprotected cells I am referring to are 18650 and most newer ZL's won't fit a protected 18650.

I have a H52Fw and a SC52w with protected 14500 cells in them.

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I see what's going on. A quick check shows that while flashlights are limited to 65.2 mm cells, headlamps can take up to 69 mm. I run protected cells in the newest headlamps (H604d, H600Fd Mk IV, and an older H600w Mk II). I run the Olight ORB-186S35, Orbtronics, and even some old red Ultrafires. The Olight specs on some sites say battery length is 70 mm, but they are actually just under 69.

I run in my SC 52c... 14500 unprotected, Eneloops and Alkaline Duracells. To me, the SC 52 is a great travel light... anywhere.