SF Luxeon lifespan and replacement

jondru

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Just a quick question for you sages and oracles: I saw a comment in a recent query indicating that the expected lifespan of the SF KL4 LED is ~500 hours.

Is that true? And if so, how does one go about getting the LED in an L4 or L5 replaced? Is it covered under Surefire's blanket warranty? I haven't been able to learn anything from their site on the subject (especially since it doesn't even mention the L5!).

thanks!
vv
J.O.
 

The_LED_Museum

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I'm pretty sure this would be covered under SureFire's warranty program.

But I'm not an expert in this, and don't play one on TV.
So please take my opinions with large amounts of crystalline sodium chloride. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Size15's

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If it breaks, SureFire will fix it. If it wears out that's not the same thing. Certainly you don't expect to have your car tires or brake pads replaced for free when they wear out do you?

SureFire's rubber-covered tape pressure switches wear out, as do the rubber push buttons on flashlights. These things as well as batteries and lamps are not covered I don't think and I never even expected Luxeons to be either. If the SureFire breaks, then certainly, but if it is used to the end of it's useful life then it's different.

Perhaps the issue here is that there is no "rated lifespan" from SureFire for their 5W Luxeon products. They don't give one for bulb Lamp Assemblies either do they?
Does any flashlight manufacturer give a rated lifespan for Luxeon models (either 1W, 5W or III) ??

I don't know how long my L4 will last (I believe the 5W Luxeon has a kinda 'half-life' in that it'll get less bright over time rather than just stop?)

I personally feel that LED lifespan is not an issue because even 500 hours, 1000 hours, 5000 hours or whatever is such a significant improvement over bulbs that if the LED does get worn out through extremely heavy use over the course of a year or so, surely the user has made use of the durability and extended lifespan giving them value for money and return on the increased inital investment required over bulbs?

Is there really an expectation here on CPF that companies should replace for free Luxeons that have worn out?

Al
 

JediKnife

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How about this: Can the LED be easily replaced in the Surefire L4, similar to a bulb? I surely don't want to spend $160 on a flashlight with the idea that it's something disposable. That's absurd.

JK
 

briteguy

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Let's assume the MN bulbs for the E lights would last 50 hous at $15 each. One would have to replace the bulbs 9 times for the equivalent 500 hour 5w halflife.

That's $135 just in bulb replacement. Wouldn't that make the $160 L4 look somewhat more attractive?

And btw, $160 is not the major expense when you have to spent $1250 in batteries to wear L4 to its halflife...
 

spotter1

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Thats true, but I'd like to see Surefire come up with a more economical way to manufacture LED assemblies. Instead of the sealed unit, maybe the assembly could be similar to the new UK 4AA eLED (LED and reflector seperate from head assembly). It would cost Surefire more money up front, but would more more economical and efficient for both Surefire and the consumer in the long term. Also, if the light ever leaks, it could be disassembled by the consumer and cleaned without having to send it back to Surefire, if of course, the lights still works.
 

Klaus

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You can run the L4/L5/L6 on rechargeables - cell cost is a mute point then - what does it have to do with the issue anyway. Having someone claim his car uses too much gasoline and answering that it will need tires and brake pads anyway as well is a similar erroneous line of argumentation IMO.

BTW: SF never officially confirmed the 500h issue (besides email statements that SF is using the portable 5Watter as only those are avaiable) and/or that the used LED has only 500h as per the manufacturer - I remember that someone once posted an official response from SF CS that the 5W LED heads are supposed to have 5000h runtime or something ?

To Al - funny that after I questioned your line "who said SF is using those 500h LEDs" and we got THAT pretty much confirmed you now go like "why should worn out parts be replaced" when the average LED buyer expects some 100,000 hours like with other LEDS too and nowhere on the SF site this issue is even mentioned ? And don´t get me started on your U2 FUD /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Klaus said:
[ QUOTE ]
size15s said:
[ QUOTE ]
Klaus said:
[ QUOTE ]
E2E4ME said:
What are the big differences going to be? Selectable output levels?

[/ QUOTE ]

E2E4ME - for input on selectable multiple output level SFs with 5W LEDs do a search for SF ULTRA here on CPF /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Klaus

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no such thing! Don't you guys get that it was a wind up?!

Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to quote it all together in one place and we´ll surely see sooner or later if this was a joke or not, whatever the final name of this product will be, if it ever hits the market. At least, if not, we still have PG @ ARC to the rescue for a multi-level dimmable 5W LS. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Klaus

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I think the Surefire ULTRA clearly materialized on earth dispite your strong denial of it supposedly knowing better having seen it on last years SHOT already.

I do like Surefire products too and the L4 is one of my most treasured LED lights and I have no problem with swapping the LED in it after whatever number of hours knowing well that SF can´t do anything about this Lumiled screw-up - but I tend to believe that what surfaces through this issue as well as the U2-FUD is something better left to fansites or marketing departments where its clear to every reader where things are coming from.

As always just my 2 €cents and YMMV

Klaus
 

jondru

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Y'all have moved way past my original question, but I wanted to add that Surefire responded to my query to them on the same topic: they said if the LED in the L5 I just bought ever goes belly-up, it will be covered by the warranty.

I'll post the exact response when I get to work.

vv
J.O.
 

Klaus

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[ QUOTE ]
jondru said:

I'll post the exact response when I get to work.

vv
J.O.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, please do so - Surefire /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Klaus
 

jondru

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Here's how SF responded:

"Sir,
The LED lamp should never burn out. If you have an LED light that is not functioning try a fresh set of batteries. If that does not work call us for authorization to send the light back.

ERIC BIDDLE
TECHNICAL SUPPORT"

vv
J.O.
 

RussH

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That 500 hour life is only down to a certain percentage of it's original output. I'm not sure Lumileds specifies it for the 5W, but its 70% for the 1W and Lux3. Most lights, including flashlight bulbs, experiece a decreasing output as they age. And normal flashlight bulbs usually are rated 20-25 hours. SF bulbs are probably rated 50 hours. You might well get good output for 2000 hours or more, and think how many years would it take to use it for 500 hours. If I were regularly working at night and used one frequently, I would get a 3W or a tri-star with 3 Lux3s. I hope SF will let us know what kind of life these lux 5Ws get, some of them will surely get a real workout.
 

SilverFox

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I was thinking about this 500 hour issue.

I remembered that I tracked the hours of usage when I got my 990. There was an issue of beam color and break in of the bulb. Granted, I had some projects going that I used the light on, so this should be considered heavy use.

In one month I logged over 50 hours of use. I am now close to 100 hours of use after 3 months.

If someone was using rechargeable cells in a 5 watt light, and if there is a significant change in light output at 500 hours, and if that person was a "heavy" user, - a lot of "ifs" - you could notice a change in less than a year of use.

My 990 is the only light that I have tracked run time on, and I consider it a heavy duty use light. I have other lights that I have had a longer time, but none that I use this hard.

Tom
 

JediKnife

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I also contacted Surefire's tech support through both email and and telephone they confirmed that the LEDs are replaced under their "if it breaks we'll fix it" warranty.

Does anyone know Arc's warranty policy for LED replacement?
JK
 

chiaroscuro

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The question in my mind,Jediknife, is normal wear and tear-the Luxeon losing output due to approaching the end of it's lifecycle- the same as "breaking"? This still sounds unanswered by Surefire.
 

Badbeams3

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I don`t think any company is covering the output...only that it will at least glow for a "lifetime". The Pelican M6 led box says it has a bulb life of 10,000 hours. But it also claims a run time of 40 hours. We know it is dimm at 10 hours. If you change the batts after every 4 hours (its bright burn time) you would likely cut the LS life down from 10,000 to...maybe...500, probably much less. But...it would still glow. And thats not a "failure"...no free replacement.

Ken
 

gadget_lover

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I really shouldn't fan the flmes here, but.....

From Lumileds datasheet for Lux V portables (DS40.pdf)

The average output is 120 lumens.

The Light Output Characteristics chart shows that the light level will drop to around 80% when the junction temperature is 70 degress C.

The Average Lumen Maintenance Characteristics chart shows that the total output will degrade to 75% after 500 hours at 70C, and no idea how much after that; "While the device will operate past 500 hours, its lumen maintenance cannot yet be characterized."

So after 500 hours you get 75% of 80% of 120 lumens (average) for a total of 72 lumens (60% of the original). While that's plenty bright for many purposes, don't most of us consider it time to change the batteries when the output drops to around 50 percent?

So, to the question of lifespan (from the original post), I'd say it was somewhat less than 500 hours due to the decline the entire time the Lux V is being used.

This, of course depends on what you define as a minimum brightness for your L4. Last weekend my brother in law hauled out his 3 D-Cell Mag with it's dirty lense and feeble orange beam. He remarked that it looked like the batteries were fresh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


I found it was VERY easy to replace the LED in my L1. Is the L4 that much harder?

Daniel
 

Byron Walter

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Also consider that you would only have to replace the KL4 unit, not the entire flashlight. I think that my KL4 cost about 90 - 95 bucks, not cheap but certainly a better deal than a bunch of bulbs (which usually go puff at the worst possible time).
 

grcmptrnrd

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Going to kinda hijack this thread...I'm also curious about replacing the LED in the L4. How diffucult is it to replace, and would putting in a higher binned luxeon give more light without any electronic modifications?
 
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