Buying a new small crossover car - LED or Halogen lights

callehayes

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Hello,

I hope all of you are good. I am about to buy a new small crossover type vehicle, e.g. Subaru Crosstek or Hyundai Kona etc.

I studied the specs in detailed and notice that some trim levels offer LED lighting and others offer Halogen lighting for the exterior lightning, especially headlamps.

I have reviewed the IIHS safety ratings for the vehicles I am considering as well, and for some models/trims the LED lightning provide better road illumination.

However, if I opt for the LED lighting, are these simply bulbs that can be changed as they go bad, or will I likely need to go to the dealer and change the whole lamp unit? For example, I see that many outdoor lights at Home Depot etc are LED, but their bulbs are soldered on, so there is no way to easily change the bulbs.

To add, what are the illumination benefits of LED vs Halogen bulbs for road visibility? My dad cannot see that well at night and he may drive the car at times.

Thank you!!!
 

Nephron44

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Go LED. Unless you have a defective light or have physical damage, you shouldn't have to replace the light.
 

Ls400

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I read the Kona has a better LED projector than the ones used by Toyota on its recent models.
 

-Virgil-

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Get the LED lights. It's not that LED headlamps are necessarily or always better -- it's completely possible to make a low-performing LED headlamp -- but increasingly, the LED headlamps on the market convincingly beat the performance of the halogen lamps on the same car. LED headlamps are sealed units; there is no bulb to replace. Lifespan of the LED light source is many times longer than that of a bulb; this is not a concern.

As for illumination benefits of LED vs halogen: the real benefit is that many LED headlamps, including those on the two models you mention, put more light on the road than the base-equipment halogen lamps. There are other claimed benefits (endless hype about LED headlights' color being "closer to sunlight", etc). This is largely BS, but it's an effective sales tactic.

One big caution: don't think you can get the halogen lights and then "convert" them to LED by installing "LED bulbs". You can buy products claiming to be exactly such bulbs, but they are all fraudulent, unsafe, and illegal. Same goes for "HID kits". I mention this specifically because dealer sales staff have been known to use "Oh, you can get a kit and upgrade them" to try to push a particular car, or if the buyer is reluctant to spend the money for the trim level that has the better lights.
 
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callehayes

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I read the Kona has a better LED projector than the ones used by Toyota on its recent models.

Hey @LS400 I am actually almost ready to buy the Hyundai Kona trim that offers the LED lights.

Have you heard or read anything about the Kona or Hyundai in general? 2019 models.

I am definitely not looking to convert from Halogen using an aftermarket kit or anything like that :)

Thank you!!
 

-Virgil-

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I read the Kona has a better LED projector than the ones used by Toyota on its recent models.

That's interesting. Maybe it's true, or maybe it's not. How about a link or a pointer or a citation or something more useful than saying you read something somewhere? That way the credibility of the claim can be evaluated.
 

Ls400

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Here's a quote of the test results:
Ever since IIHS announced that they rated the LED headlights on the 2019 Hyundai Kona with a "GOOD" rating I've been eager to test these LED projectors out. Especially since IIHS recorded one of their farthest "straightaway right edge" readings of all headlights since they started testing in 2016. AND this was measured with no GLARE, which means the aim was pretty spot on (which has been the controversy with their testing results)

Anyways, some of you may know already that the Koito bi-LED (found in the Prius and other cars) has been the best performing *OEM LED* projector since it came out. And all the testing I've done has shown that it truly has been the king…until now.
Some quick prelim numbers reveal that the Kona bi-LED (by Hyundai-Mobis) has about 15% more peak luminous intensity in the hotspot zone. And it's positioned quite well (centered on vertical and
up tight towards the cutoff) for maximum down road visibility. That's pretty awesome!
The Koito may have a larger
high intensity zone and a little more intensity at the L/R edges but the Mobis is definitely a top performer.


Here is a picture:

https://imgur.com/a/PgVYDjY
 
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callehayes

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Hey all thank you for this input. Somewhere I read that -




'Automotive manufacturers are aware heat is a problem and they don't want to be liable for bulbs failing too fast from overheating, because the design of the bulb housing can trap the heat and cause the bulb to fail.'


Does this mean that there are still major flaws in automotive exterior led headlight technology?
 

Magio

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I own a Honda Accord. I know from first hand experience and from seeing so many other 2016-17 Accords with burnt out DRLs that yes some manufacturers are having pretty major issues with lights burning out prematurely.
 

LeanBurn

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I would be very interested to learn the CRI ratings of the latest LED headlamp offerings.

I have never had the option of having a car that had LED headlamps, but if I did and there was a choice between LED and halogen I would drive both the halogen and the LED and see which I prefer. There are still quite a few factory OEM LED headlamps with color that I find offensive, perhaps that aspect will improve over time.
 

-Virgil-

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Somewhere I read that 'Automotive manufacturers are aware heat is a problem and they don't want to be liable for bulbs failing too fast from overheating, because the design of the bulb housing can trap the heat and cause the bulb to fail.' Does this mean that there are still major flaws in automotive exterior led headlight technology?

No, it means whoever wrote that article you're quoting -- if you're quoting -- didn't know what they were talking about (and can't write; that pile of words makes no sense as written). LED headlamps do not use bulbs or "bulb housings". LEDs are thermically unlike previous headlamp light sources. With all previous light sources, the light and heat travelled the same path. With LEDs, the light goes forward and the heat goes rearward. The heat must be adequately moved off the LED, because as an LED's temperature rises its output drops; this is called "thermal droop". Beyond that, eventually inadequate heat sinking and thermal management will cause the LED to heat up to a failure point. Thermal management has gotten a whole lot easier since the first LED headlamps hit the market 13 years ago in the Lexus LS600; at that time a whole lot of LEDs were required to get adequate light for a headlight beam, and their efficacy (lumens output per watt input) was lower than today. So those early LED headlamps had to have heat pipes, fans, and other bulky, complicated thermal management strategies that increased parts count and potential failure modes -- but even then, failure rates were quite low.

Today's LEDs have much higher efficacy. Today's optics are more advanced. Today we have a much wider range of effective heat sink materials. All of which means we need a lot fewer LEDs, dissipating a lot less power, to make a good headlight beam. So fans and such are largely no longer needed; today's LED headlamps use passive cooling that's completely adequate even in very high-stress situations (very hot day, vehicle standing still). We generally do not have problems with thermal failures in legitimate LED headlamps.

But that doesn't mean LED car lamps are somehow immune to the fact that they're designed, specified, and built by imperfect human beings. Keep in mind we generally do not have problems with failures in fuel injection systems, engine oiling systems, windshield wiper systems, door lock systems, and any other car system you might want to name...but it does happen. That's why there are service bulletins and recalls, which happen with every make of car, from the cheapest to the most expensive.

Magio mentions Honda Accord DRL burnouts. That's one example (of not very many) of an LED car light that's not as life-of-the-car as it could be. Honda and their lamp supplier chose to use two LEDs for the daytime running light on each side of the car. The LEDs they chose had to be driven at a high power level to get the required amount of light, and the heat sinking is marginally adequate. As a result, the daytime running lights can fail prematurely. It doesn't happen on all, or even most cars...but the Honda Accord is a very popular seller, so even a low failure percentage adds up to a lot of cars, especially when we're talking about the daytime running light, which is specifically designed to be visible out in front of the car. Add in the human tendency for confirmation bias, and it's only natural someone might say "Oh, geez, yeah, I see that all the time, they're having major issues with those lights burning out prematurely", even if the actual math of the matter doesn't support that view. In the case of the Accord, the official fix is very expensive if it's done after the 3-year/36,000-mile warranty ends (replace the affected headlamp/s) but there's at least one reasonable aftermarket fix that costs about $50.

The existence of an isolated example like this does not mean LED car lights should be avoided. Overall, the reliability and durability of LED car lights are much better than HID and halogen/incandescent. The LEDs tend to last a lot longer and fail a lot less. From the perspective of your driving comfortably and avoiding a crash after dark, it would be foolhardy to opt for the lower safety performance and lower dependability of bulb-type lights, especially in the case of the Hyundai Kona; its halogen headlamps use H4 bulbs, which were state of the art in the early 1970s and are very inefficient on low beam (not able to put much light on the road). The Hyundai warranty is better/longer than Honda provides, too, so there's that.

Does this mean that there are still major flaws in automotive exterior led headlight technology?

That question is based on a faulty premise.
 
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Ls400

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In the case of the Accord, the official fix is very expensive if it's done after the 3-year/36,000-mile warranty ends (replace the affected headlamp/s) but there's at least one reasonable aftermarket fix that costs about $50.

What's the fix? I Googled "accord drl fix" and "accord led drl fix" and the only aftermarket fix I readily found was a $45 one from TRS. Is that the one?
 

Magio

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What's the fix? I Googled "accord drl fix" and "accord led drl fix" and the only aftermarket fix I readily found was a $45 one from TRS. Is that the one?

Being that I actually own an Accord I would love to know the answer to this question too. Ive been all on the accord forums and never seen a fix except replacing the lights.

BtW there is a lawsuit against Honda for this.
 
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callehayes

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Good morning @magio @Ls400 @Virgil (moderator) thank you so much. You guys seem very knowledgeable about lighting and vehicles as well.

@Virgil thank you Mr/Ms moderator, you are obviously an expert on lighting, but do you know a fair bit about cars as well? @magio @Ls400

I am looking for a second or third option in case I do not go with the Kona, looking at the Kia Niro, but they dont offer full LED unless I go to the top trim, which is not in my budget, and also looking at maybe the Subaru Crosstek, or possibly one size bigger.

Leaning towards Hyundai/Kona due to the longer warranties

Thank you!!
 

-Virgil-

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Good morning @magio @Ls400 @Virgil (moderator) thank you so much. You guys seem very knowledgeable about lighting and vehicles as well.

You're welcome.

do you know a fair bit about cars as well? I am looking for a second or third option in case I do not go with the Kona, looking at the Kia Niro, but they dont offer full LED unless I go to the top trim, which is not in my budget, and also looking at maybe the Subaru Crosstek, or possibly one size bigger.

This isn't the board for discussing cars in general, though. This board is for lighting.
 

-Virgil-

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Any thoughts on the Mobius projector besting the Koito?

You mean Mobis. It's not surprising to see comparable performance between the Koito Bi-Beam LED projector and the competing unit from Mobis. The semi-formal tests you found are enough to confirm that's the case, but not to have a coronation for the Mobis projector as beating the Koito. Highest peak intensity doesn't necessarily mean best headlamp; as the guy notes, the Koito's high-intensity zone is larger. The guy seems to know that, as he calls the Mobis projector a top performer rather than "the" top performer.
 

Ls400

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Makes sense.

Is that dip on the left side of the image of the Mobis wall shot there to prevent glare even if, say, the driver had two 400 pound passengers in the back seat and their luggage in the trunk?
 
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