Maxtorch        
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 62

Thread: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

  1. #1

    Default HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    First, for those who don't know battery chemistry, here is a link to the HDS FAQ. Scroll down to Batteries, then click on What are rechargeable lithium-ion batteries?
    We have been working with a manufacturer to get 16340 INR batteries built. It seems that they are just not available in this size while being pretty common in the 18650 size.

    After a long time testing both at HDS and from an independent person, we were quite pleased with the results and will be offering these soon. How soon? Well, they are "supposed to" arrive at HDS tomorrow. We will then need some time to get them on the web site and sample check a few, etc. etc. so most likely around May 21, 2019.

    These are 700mah ( a real 700mah without exaggeration). They are currently listed in the FAQ as well, but here it is so you don't have to go looking it up.


    These do NOT have a protection circuit so using in another light is at your own risk. In fact, just DON'T use it another light. I said it. Don't. (Legally I have to say "Don't Freakin' Do It!!!") Other lights might very well kill this cell over discharging where the HDS has this built into the light, and some other lights might like to discharge this battery at rates that can cause issues (more legalese).

    The initial test batch was 50 units that we have "consumed" and the shipment will be for a few hundred.
    Last edited by Hogokansatsukan; 05-07-2019 at 01:41 PM.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  2. #2

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Any clue how these will compare to these Fenix 16340 batteries?

  3. #3

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by toads View Post
    Any clue how these will compare to these Fenix 16340 batteries?
    Those are ICR (Lithium Cobalt Oxide) and not INR (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide) batteries.

    As far as capacity goes, these will be nearly identical. As far as reliability, INR do not require a protection circuit because of the inherent safety of the chemistry (also one less thing to go wrong). ICR must have a protection circuit in order to prevent a runaway thermal reaction because the chemistry is unstable. INR are much safer batteries (similar to IMR) but with the capacity of ICR.

    If capacity is one's only concern, then the Fenix are just fine.

    It should be noted as well that thermal runaway can also happen when charging, so the safety issue isn't just a matter of the right flashlight or having to have a protection circuit. INR is a much safer chemistry both when using in a light and charging.
    Last edited by Hogokansatsukan; 05-07-2019 at 01:28 PM.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  4. #4

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    Those are ICR (Lithium Cobalt Oxide) and not INR (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide) batteries.

    As far as capacity goes, these will be nearly identical. As far as reliability, INR do not require a protection circuit because of the inherent safety of the chemistry (also one less thing to go wrong). ICR must have a protection circuit in order to prevent a runaway thermal reaction because the chemistry is unstable. INR are much safer batteries (similar to IMR) but with the capacity of ICR.

    If capacity is one's only concern, then the Fenix are just fine.

    It should be noted as well that thermal runaway can also happen when charging, so the safety issue isn't just a matter of the right flashlight or having to have a protection circuit. INR is a much safer chemistry both when using in a light and charging.
    Thanks Hogo, safety is definitely a concern. I live in a damn tinderbox and charge near my bed, I don't need anything catching fire.

    Once the batteries are on your site I'll definitely give them a look.

    I've been using the Ti rotary near every day since it came and the Duracell 123 is still kicking strong.

  5. #5

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I‘m using the ICR Efest 850mah and they last a long time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTacGear View Post
    I‘m using the ICR Efest 850mah and they last a long time.
    Those are way too long, 36.3mm if I remember correctly. A regular 123 cell is 33.6mm.

    I tried them once and the fit was way too tight for comfort.

    If you look at https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...h-(Black)-2014 the mAh is closer to 600 than 850.

  7. #7

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    They fit just fine and they are almost the same size as a regular cr123. But your link that you posted is useful nonetheless. I would be interested to get one of those new INR batteries, but they would have to be shipped with my Ti rotary because I live in Europe and shipping is expensive.

  8. #8

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I've been running these INR batteries in my EDC (325 NLT) and in my UV (find those little lobsters) for a month now. My UV didn't get much use until about a week ago. What has surprised me is that after I initially charged these and threw them in my lights, I haven't hit the first step down yet. With my old (very old) AW IMR batteries, my EDC would step down at least once per week (meaning throw it on the charger). Now, my AW's were OLD and well used so that is certainly to be considered, but I have yet to put these new INR's on the charger for their second charge after a month. I only use primaries as backups in my holsters, but I now I've moved to these INRs for backup as well.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  9. #9
    Modernflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Dirty Dirty South
    Posts
    3,974

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I'm impressed. Looking forward to comparing them to my 700 mAh Efest 16340's. I don't think the Efest cells can honestly compete with those specs.
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  10. #10

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTacGear View Post
    I‘m using the ICR Efest 850mah and they last a long time.
    You may find the data interesting HERE
    They appear to be 600mah from the testing... if these are the same as what you are using.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  11. #11

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hogokansatsukan View Post
    You may find the data interesting HERE
    They appear to be 600mah from the testing... if these are the same as what you are using.
    They seem to be the same. Good info there and good to know how they overrate the specs. Like I said, I would be interested in getting one or two of the new INR‘s, but only if it is possible adding them to my Ti rotary order.

    If not, I may have to try them out at a later time.

  12. #12

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I would think some of our international dealers will stock them when available.
    Hopefully these will actually show up tomorrow, but I’m getting used to delays in manufacturing... doesn’t mean I like it though.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  13. #13

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    AAaaaaaaaaaand the batteries didn't arrive like they were supposed to.
    Color me not surprised. Spoke with FedEx and sent an email off to the manufacturer.
    This has been my world for the last year. Ugh!
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  14. #14
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Land of the rising sun
    Posts
    244

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I was expecting to see updated runtime specs for the new 16340 INR batteries, because previously (as detailed in the chart above) the INR cells don't seem to give the operator much (if any) notification that the battery is running low with gradual step-down time ("Elegant low battery warning"), as can be seen in the in the ANSI vs Tactical (down to 50 lumens) runtimes.

    For example looking at the chart above for my EDC LE:

    CR123, High (110 lumens)
    2:45 mins down to 50 lumens
    3:15 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 30 mins step-down between 50 to 25 lumens.

    16340 INR, High (110 lumens)
    2:15 mins down to 50 lumens
    2:15 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 0 - <1 min step-down between 50 to 25 lumens, i.e. almost no advance warning (at least between these lumen outputs)

    16340 IMR, High (110 lumens)
    1:45 mins down to 50 lumens
    1:30 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 15 mins step-down between 50 to 25 lumens.

    Although to be fair, running maximum 250 lumens with the INR cell would give 4 mins warning between 50 - 25 lumens, so I estimate a bit more for the total step-down runtime from 250 lumens; plus you do get a longer overall runtime than with the IMR cell.

    So although INR maybe one of the safest battery chemistries if doesn't seem to go down to well with the "Light to get you home" philosophy. I don't know, I'll just have to wait and see some runtime test data or do it myself.

    BTW who is the manufacturer for these 16340 INR cells? If known we can then check to see if there are some reviews already out there.
    Last edited by GoVegan; 05-09-2019 at 12:19 AM.
    - I don't make fanboy recommendations, if I recommend a light it's because it's the most practical option for your intended application.
    - Whatever light you carry, no keychain should be without a Photon Micro-Light II.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Land of the rising sun
    Posts
    244

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Maybe a new caveat needs to be added:

    HDS "The light that gets you home" *1

    *1. When used with INR cells: "The light that gets you home, if you run quick"

    - I don't make fanboy recommendations, if I recommend a light it's because it's the most practical option for your intended application.
    - Whatever light you carry, no keychain should be without a Photon Micro-Light II.

  16. #16
    peter yetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    North Norfolk UK
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I fail to see the problem. I don't think anyone is being forced into using INR.
    In fact nothing has changed, we're just being offered another option.
    We all choose a light and fuel that will suit a particular situation.
    If you want the ultimate in security, I imagine you'd choose primaries anyway.

    P

  17. #17
    usdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    In the Sticks
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by peter yetman View Post
    I fail to see the problem. I don't think anyone is being forced into using INR.
    In fact nothing has changed, we're just being offered another option.
    We all choose a light and fuel that will suit a particular situation.
    If you want the ultimate in security, I imagine you'd choose primaries anyway.

    P
    In my case primaries aren’t an option at all. I m out in the sticks and if I can find them they are not cost effective. So far my Exposure UK 700 mah batteries have performed the best... then nitecore, then aw
    I have some keep powers but they can only be used in the HDs.
    Don’t Tread On Me

  18. #18
    peter yetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    North Norfolk UK
    Posts
    4,306

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    I have to say that most of the primaries that I have are the ones that come for free with lights. I'm all IMR and INR.
    P

  19. #19
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Land of the rising sun
    Posts
    244

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    No, no real problem, just an observation about the INR chemistry and the HDS electronics. It is certainly nice to have options, and every choice is a compromise, along the lines of mobility vs firepower.

    I guess I'm pretty disappointed with battery technology advancement in general, with laptops and especially flashlights. After much thought I think my ideal light would be a HDS running a single 1AA Eneloop Pro, yes it would certainly take a hit in the runtime on maximum, but otherwise would be great. Well something to look forward to maybe later this year.

    In the meantime I may just prod along with primary cells, as my current usage is very minimal.
    - I don't make fanboy recommendations, if I recommend a light it's because it's the most practical option for your intended application.
    - Whatever light you carry, no keychain should be without a Photon Micro-Light II.

  20. #20

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    According to FedEx, we should see the batteries at HDS today.
    We will be busy shipping out the rest of the titanium and a couple other brass lights today.
    Doubt you see them on the website for 2 weeks (mine, not Henry's) as I will be leaving town this upcoming weekend for the Overland Expo West event in Flagstaff. Woot! Woot!
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  21. #21

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by GoVegan View Post
    I was expecting to see updated runtime specs for the new 16340 INR batteries, because previously (as detailed in the chart above) the INR cells don't seem to give the operator much (if any) notification that the battery is running low with gradual step-down time ("Elegant low battery warning"), as can be seen in the in the ANSI vs Tactical (down to 50 lumens) runtimes.

    For example looking at the chart above for my EDC LE:

    CR123, High (110 lumens)
    2:45 mins down to 50 lumens
    3:15 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 30 mins step-down between 50 to 25 lumens.

    16340 INR, High (110 lumens)
    2:15 mins down to 50 lumens
    2:15 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 0 - <1 min step-down between 50 to 25 lumens, i.e. almost no advance warning (at least between these lumen outputs)

    16340 IMR, High (110 lumens)
    1:45 mins down to 50 lumens
    1:30 mins down to 25 lumens
    so with 15 mins step-down between 50 to 25 lumens.

    Although to be fair, running maximum 250 lumens with the INR cell would give 4 mins warning between 50 - 25 lumens, so I estimate a bit more for the total step-down runtime from 250 lumens; plus you do get a longer overall runtime than with the IMR cell.

    So although INR maybe one of the safest battery chemistries if doesn't seem to go down to well with the "Light to get you home" philosophy. I don't know, I'll just have to wait and see some runtime test data or do it myself.

    BTW who is the manufacturer for these 16340 INR cells? If known we can then check to see if there are some reviews already out there.
    The table provides information for several representative battery configurations. The tests were done with new premium batteries on an integrating sphere at room temperature. Per the ANSI FL-1standard, runtimes under an hour are rounded to the nearest minute, runtimes from 1 to 10 hours are rounded to the nearest 15 minutes and runtimes over 10 hours are rounded to the nearest hour.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  22. #22

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    The eagle has landed!!!
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  23. #23
    Modernflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Dirty Dirty South
    Posts
    3,974

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Can't wait to try them out!
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Bottom Of Pikes Peak
    Posts
    2,273

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Are these going to start be included with the lights like the 18650s are, or are the lights still going to ship with primaries?

    They sure do look pretty...i like the red wrapping

  25. #25

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by INFRNL View Post
    Are these going to start be included with the lights like the 18650s are, or are the lights still going to ship with primaries?

    They sure do look pretty...i like the red wrapping
    Primaries will continue to ship with the 123 lights. We are offering these for those who want a safer alternative to ICR cells but without the loss in capacity. People who order 18650 tubes (when we have them in stock... aaahhhhhhhhhhh!) know they will have to have a way to charge them, but folks who order a 123 often do so because they can use primary or rechargeable. Just more options, and options are good.
    Last edited by Hogokansatsukan; 05-13-2019 at 10:49 PM.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Bottom Of Pikes Peak
    Posts
    2,273

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Thanks. Will be looking for them on the site then...when you get back.

  27. #27

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Now on the HDS web page: 16340 INR Batteries
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  28. #28
    usdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    In the Sticks
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    @Hogo
    18650, can I use ANY battery chemistry batteries without damage?

    AA, can I use both alkaline AND lithium primary batteries without damage?

    16340, this new one... any possible way to get shipped to Europe? Or do you have dealers in EU that have them?

    Finally, where’s the dealer link now on the HDS website?
    Don’t Tread On Me

  29. #29

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    @Hogo
    18650, can I use ANY battery chemistry batteries without damage?

    AA, can I use both alkaline AND lithium primary batteries without damage?

    16340, this new one... any possible way to get shipped to Europe? Or do you have dealers in EU that have them?

    Finally, where’s the dealer link now on the HDS website?
    Yes, you can use any 18650 chemistry, it is just the INR chemistry has the largest capacity and is the safest.
    AA Primary lithium is fine in the 2AA tube. In fact, we are now shipping the 2AA lights with primary lithium batteries.
    Our dealers do not have the 16340 INR batteries yet, but I expect they will start stocking them soon. Knives and Tools is probably the closet to you.
    The dealer link was removed over a year ago.
    Thor's Hammer Custom Leather
    HDS Systems Henry's Mini-Me
    I play with dead things

  30. #30
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Land of the rising sun
    Posts
    244

    Default Re: HDS 16340 INR Batteries LiNiMnCoO2

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    @Hogo
    18650, can I use ANY battery chemistry batteries without damage?

    AA, can I use both alkaline AND lithium primary batteries without damage?

    16340, this new one... any possible way to get shipped to Europe? Or do you have dealers in EU that have them?

    Finally, where’s the dealer link now on the HDS website?
    It's important to understand that no particular battery chemistry will damage a HDS light, only exceeding the recommended voltage can damage it. i.e. 16340 batteries up to 4.2V when fully charged (3.6V nominal) are OK, but using 2 x CR123 (in a 18650 body) would be 6.4V (5.6V nominal) and would damage the light.

    The only other thing to keep in mind is to not use IFR (Li-FePO4) batteries as they are 3V, so the HDS circuitry can't detect that it is not a standard CR123 and hence the stepdown will not be handled correctly and can damage the battery though over-discharge.
    Last edited by GoVegan; 05-29-2019 at 02:58 AM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •