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Thread: is HID development "dead"?

  1. #1

    Default is HID development "dead"?

    I was talking to some self-proclaimed "expert" and he claimed that automotive HID development is dead. The more I thought of it, the more it seems to at least pass the sniff test. Even in developing countries, where drivers won't necessarily want to shell out extra $ for LED lighting, there seems to be little point in offering a HID system which necessitates not only expensive maintenance costs (even people in the US balk at $100 HID bulbs at the parts stores) but also higher system complexity, with the need for ballasts and igniters as opposed to a halogen setup. Also, as has been mentioned several times on this forum, LEDs have outperformed even the best automotive HID systems for years now. So there's not really much of a point in developed countries either, it seems. This is coupled with my observation of the development of new halogen bulbs, like H18/H19. In the discussions surrounding these new Hxx bulbs, it seems that some of these new bulbs are designed to match the color temperature of automotive exterior LED lighting, rather than HID lighting. Finally, it seems that most (all?) modern adaptive driving beam systems rely on LEDs. Sure, it can be done with HIDs or halogens, but it seems that the preferred solution for ADB involves LEDs, and one discussion on CPF disparaged BMW's ADB tech for motorcycles as too complex, as it involved moving HIDs rather than turning fixed LED chips on or off, like what JW Speaker did.

    It really seems that all development now is centered around LEDs. So, is automotive HID development pretty much dead in the water?
    Last edited by Ls400; 05-13-2019 at 08:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ls400 View Post
    he claimed that automotive HID development is dead.
    HID is essentially a transitional technology, and with all the advancements in LEDs, it is all but dead. Replacement parts will be made, but as far as engineering newer systems I doubt much more effort will be put there.

    Among the more recent developments (around 2013) were 25W systems which are exempt from ECE auto-levelling and washing requirements (a requirement based not on wattage, but on the <2000lm light source output). It doesn't seem like there's much of a reason to do anything more from there.

    The best examples of LED headlamps are far beyond HID headlamps. There are so many advantages with LEDs, from lack of the hot restrike concerns with HID to the lack of mercury. The electrical systems are simpler. The power consumption and the weight is reduced (per car, somewhat meaningless; over an entire fleet it adds up).

  3. #3

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ls400 View Post
    I was talking to some self-proclaimed "expert" and he claimed that automotive HID development is dead.
    Are those sneer quotes yours, or are they his? Either way, he's right: HID headlamp development is no longer being pursued.

    This is coupled with my observation of the development of new halogen bulbs, like H18/H19. In the discussions surrounding these new Hxx bulbs, it seems that some of these new bulbs are designed to match the color temperature of automotive exterior LED lighting, rather than HID lighting.
    H18 and H19 are not designed to look like anything but the halogen bulbs they are. You might be thinking of H20, a bulb with deep blue glass to imitate a 5500-6000K color temperature, supposably for halogen high beams used in conjunction with LED low beams, a system configuration that is very rapidly losing ground to all-LED systems. The blue glass means the H20 is very inefficient (13.2v, 75w, 1250 lm, which is 16.7 lpw...compare to H7 13.2v, 58w, 1500 lm, which is 25.9 lpw, or HIR2 13.2v, 63w, 1875 lm, which is 29.8 lpw).

  4. #4

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Are those sneer quotes yours, or are they his? Either way, he's right: HID headlamp development is no longer being pursued.
    Mine, and it's the same guy who posts on Facebook about various LED headlamps.

    That sucks. Is automotive HID bulb development basically dead now too? A Night Breaker Laser +300% would be nice, why stop at +200%?

  5. #5

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ls400 View Post
    Mine, and it's the same guy who posts on Facebook about various LED headlamps.
    OK, I've seen his stuff, and while he doesn't get everything right (and seems to persistently hold onto some ideas that just aren't correct) he does get a lot right, and does more methodical, appropriate, objective testing than a huge majority of other amateur "tests" and "reviews" of headlights and bulbs, etc. I don't know his background or formal education, but I think he probably qualifies as more or less an expert, without sneer quotes.

    That sucks.
    Tell me: why does it suck that a transitional technology is no longer being developed now that its time has passed and there's a better technology (more effective, more efficient, less expensive, more reliable, longer life, etc) in current use? We didn't still develop mimeograph machines or photostats machines once the Xerox machine came in. We stopped developing propeller-driven big airplanes once jets came in. We don't develop carburetors any more. There's not much going on in terms of development of camera film. Bias-ply tires are no longer being developed, and neither are flashbulbs or rotary-dial phones.

    Is automotive HID bulb development basically dead now too?
    Probably not; there's a big installed base of them all over the world, and the aftermarket's always looking for new-and-improved to drive increased sales.

  6. #6

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Good point, better that HID be abandoned than R&D dollars be poured into a dying field instead of, say, LEDs.

    I'm very curious: what are some of his persistent beliefs which are incorrect? I have held off on the urge to post everything he has written on CPF for you to fact check...I know better than to clutter the forum, but I can't help but wonder what parts of his writings are correct and what are not!

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  7. #7

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Well, for example he seems to hold persistently to a belief that LED retrofits for H11 bulbs can be "improved" by grinding the base to move the LEDs 1 millimeter forward. He is basing this on what he perceives to be a reduction in above-horizontal light when he makes this modification, but disregarding this modification's other (negative) effects on the beam output of the headlamp.

  8. #8

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    I don't know his background or formal education, but I think he probably qualifies as more or less an expert, without sneer quotes.
    I just talked with him the other day. He has no formal education in anything automotive related. He said he's self-taught with regard to automotive lighting, and he's working with a company to see if he can get free access to their modeling software to better understand headlamp design. Now, if only I could self-teach myself as effectively!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    But HID is available in 4300K. LED's are generally 6000K-6500K. Are they making any native (not filtered) 4300K LED's to replace HID?

  10. #10
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TechGuru View Post
    But HID is available in 4300K. LED's are generally 6000K-6500K.
    And in 4000K and 3900K, but color temperature isn't the sole determinant of headlamp performance, although it is annoying that the CCTs are so high when it confers no advantage.

    Are they making any native (not filtered) 4300K LED's to replace HID?
    Perhaps they'll start taking a cue from home lighting, in which CCTs as low as 2200K are available. Add the recent craze of "blue light BAD" and we might start seeing CCTs creep down a bit. But for now we're stuck with what we have, and color temps aside LEDs are cheaper to produce and implement and lamps based on them are less expensive to make and simpler to implement than HID systems, and the luminous efficacy of LED is far outstripping HID.

    Also, there are selective yellow LEDs, which would be great for fog lamp use (and there are no legitimate fog lamps that use HID, so another strike against HID's continued existence).

  11. #11

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric Darconville View Post
    (and there are no legitimate fog lamps that use HID, so another strike against HID's continued existence).
    You sure about that? Stanley P6780 https://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-2009-L...4f07%7Ciid%3A2
    Last edited by Magio; 06-13-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Interesting find. The seller's description doesn't match itself (title says "HID" but specs and text say "bulb type: LED" and "LED computers and connectors are included like on pictures!", but the pics clearly show an HID ballast). The seller's description also doesn't seem to match Toyota's own recollection of what they put on the 2007-2009 Lexus LS; the factory parts breakouts show only halogen fog lamps were used in all markets. Maybe these were an accessory or a limited-production item, or maybe they're not quite as described.

  13. #13

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    They are a little easier to find on some of the Japanese auction sites. Seems they have the LED daytime running lights in the same assembly as the HID foglamps. Thats possibly what the seller's description is indicating. https://autoparts.beforward.jp/detai...ts/PA12517852/

  14. #14
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Conspicuously absent is the Toyota part number for the lamp assembly.

  15. #15

    Default Re: is HID development "dead"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magio View Post
    They are a little easier to find on some of the Japanese auction sites. Seems they have the LED daytime running lights in the same assembly as the HID foglamps.
    Japan didn't allow DRLs until just recently; they were not allowed in 2007-2009. The lamps appear to be Stanley items, so it's possible they're somewhere in the neighborhood of what's described, but...no Toyota P/N, no listing in the Toyota catalogs...clearly they exist, but what they are is still an open question. Anyway, there are somewhere between "no" and "very, very few" legitimate HID fog lamps.

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