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Thread: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* LeanBurn's Avatar
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    Default LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/healt...rnd/index.html

    From the above article:

    The blue light in LED lighting that is increasingly used in our homes can damage the eye's retina while disturbing our biological and sleep rhythms, a French health authority warned in a new report.

    New scientific evidence confirms the "phototoxic effects" of short-term exposures to high-intensity blue light, as well as an increased risk of age-related macular degeneration after chronic exposure to lower-intensity sources, according to the French Agency for Food, Environmental and Occupational Health & Safety, known as ANSES.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    who installs blue light in their homes? afaik we install white, some of them are cool white, but it is far from blue.

    also cheap drivers with no proper capacitors basically strobe at frequencies of the ac line. can give you a headache, we talked about it in a different thread a while ago
    Last edited by alpg88; 05-17-2019 at 11:47 AM.

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    Flashaholic* LeanBurn's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Usually the cooler the light in terms of tint, the more blue the light is used. It explains in the article;

    "For example, "warm white" domestic LED lighting has weak phototoxicity risks, similar to traditional lighting, according to ANSES. However, other LED lighting sources, including the newest flashlights, car headlights and some toys, produce a whiter and "colder" blue light that is more harmful."
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alpg88 View Post
    who installs blue light in their homes? afaik we install white, some of them are cool white, but it is far from blue.

    also cheap drivers with no proper capacitors basically strobe at frequencies of the ac line. can give you a headache, we talked about it in a different thread a while ago
    Youíd be surprised at the amount of blue light we are exposed to and I ve seen may people install or have lights installed that they arenít aware of as being harmful. I ve worked in toxic lighting yet when you bring it to someoneís attention they say youíre not qualified to say...
    I guess it takes a flashaholic to point out the differences in various lights.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alpg88 View Post
    who installs blue light in their homes? afaik we install white, some of them are cool white, but it is far from blue.

    also cheap drivers with no proper capacitors basically strobe at frequencies of the ac line. can give you a headache, we talked about it in a different thread a while ago
    5000k and above lights have majority blue spectrum wavelength. Even 4000k lights have about an equal amplitude of blue wavelength and yellow/red wavelength. 2700k and below gets a whole lot less blue wavelength. Most of the 3000k led bulbs I've tested are actually closer to 2700k. The lowest amount of blue wavelength in LED emitters I've tested is the Nichia E21A 2000k. It is about spot on 2000k, DUV about 0.000 and blue wavelength probably less than incandescent lighting.

    Also it does make a difference in the time it takes for me to fall asleep when exposed to different CCT lights so I'm sure this article is legit

  6. #6

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    I found some of the claims a bit bizarre which makes me question the underlying assumptions, i.e. saying screens were not an issue due to the intensity being low .....not sure about you but I rarely look right into my lights. On that front direct light from blue/white LEDs has been identified as a biological hazard for over a decade.

    W.r.t. high CCT lights, say 5K, if you want your pupil to close so that you have good depth of focus and things are not blurry you need blue wavelengths. Reading under 2700k light is a recipe for eye strain and is awful for detailed work.

    CRI does come into play for the balance of the shortest blue wavelengths total energy. Generally supplier want to take the 450-455 blue pump and create longer wavelengths as that means more lumens.

    Let's also not lose sight (pun intended) that artificial lighting levels are but a fraction of sunlight which has lots of blue and far more damaging UV.

    The exposure time of car headlights where the levels are high that damage can occur is minimal so I am not sure even why it was brought up. Sure it causes discomfort glare but eye damage ... Sorry, no.

    Blue light interfering with melatonin suppression and circadian rhythm has been known 2 decades now so mentioning this in the report gives it no legitimacy.
    Last edited by MeMeMe; 05-20-2019 at 04:22 AM.

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by MeMeMe View Post
    Reading under 2700k light is a recipe for eye strain and is awful for detailed work.

    Let's also not lose sight (pun intended) that artificial lighting levels are but a fraction of sunlight which has lots of blue and far more damaging UV.
    2700k depends on the brightness but 2700 is typically pleasing to the eyes however itís not my favorite.

    Regarding the sunlight, we were born with natural filters and means in our eyes to deal with uv light from the sun. Itís natural and though bright isnít pleasant you will not have uv damage to the eyes unless youíre looking straight at it. Man made uv however is a totally different animal and it can mess you up.

    Blue light, (the kind from screens, poorly made led panels, etc) obviously man made can mess you up too and you donít have to look directly at it for it to give you a problem.

    Just sayin
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  8. #8

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    2700k depends on the brightness but 2700 is typically pleasing to the eyes however itís not my favorite.

    Regarding the sunlight, we were born with natural filters and means in our eyes to deal with uv light from the sun. Itís natural and though bright isnít pleasant you will not have uv damage to the eyes unless youíre looking straight at it. Man made uv however is a totally different animal and it can mess you up.

    Blue light, (the kind from screens, poorly made led panels, etc) obviously man made can mess you up too and you donít have to look directly at it for it to give you a problem.

    Just sayin
    - You need massive amounts of 2700K before you properly stimulate your iPRG cells, and would require well .... as much blue as just going with less total amount of cooler light. 2700 is pleasing at low lighting levels.

    - Nope, no filters that work different for the sun or the blue from LEDs. Light is light. Ditto for UV ... man made or not, it all depends on the spectrum. You tend not to look right into man-made UV lights either. Sunlight, room lights, screen ... blue is blue.

  9. #9

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    The blue light from your LED screen isnít hurting your eyes

    https://qz.com/1620931/blue-lights-f...urt-your-eyes/
    Do LED lights hurt your eyes?

    In the vast majority of cases, no.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by JimIslander View Post
    The blue light from your LED screen isnít hurting your eyes

    https://qz.com/1620931/blue-lights-f...urt-your-eyes/
    Do LED lights hurt your eyes?

    In the vast majority of cases, no.
    This article is interesting but also misleading. They arenít talking about the level of blue light and yes it CAN cause damage ie: led panel in the ceiling, 1350 lumens @ 3000k for example and youíre sitting under it for a length of time. 3000k is considered neutral but this gives me a headache and isnít pleasant. Boost that up to 1500 lumens @ 4000 k, 5000 k which doesnít sound that unreasonable but this is too intense now boost it up to the same lumens at 6000 k and youíve got a problem of youíre exposed to that for 8 hours a day. Itís worse than the computer screen.
    Iíve read articles and looked into this but there are dangers however itís really some. If a light is doing you harm youíll have the warnings or should have as itís not easy on those pretty greens (eyes Iím talking about)
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by JimIslander View Post
    The blue light from your LED screen isnít hurting your eyes


    https://qz.com/1620931/blue-lights-f...urt-your-eyes/
    Do LED lights hurt your eyes?

    In the vast majority of cases, no.

    It may not be harmful but it still affects your circadian rhythm thus I keep my computer LCD set to 5000K instead of the factory default of 6500K.

  12. #12

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    This article is interesting but also misleading. They arenít talking about the level of blue light and yes it CAN cause damage ie: led panel in the ceiling, 1350 lumens @ 3000k for example and youíre sitting under it for a length of time. 3000k is considered neutral but this gives me a headache and isnít pleasant. Boost that up to 1500 lumens @ 4000 k, 5000 k which doesnít sound that unreasonable but this is too intense now boost it up to the same lumens at 6000 k and youíve got a problem of youíre exposed to that for 8 hours a day. Itís worse than the computer screen.
    Iíve read articles and looked into this but there are dangers however itís really some. If a light is doing you harm youíll have the warnings or should have as itís not easy on those pretty greens (eyes Iím talking about)
    What type of panel in the ceiling do you mean? Is this home or work?

    If it is work, it is not 1300 or 1500 lumens, it is likely 2*2 feet, or 600*600mm and 3500-4000 lumens. It is almost most likely 4000K, by far the most popular for lighting in much of the world for commercial, though you see a lot of 5000K in Asia.

    It's not the 3000K or 4000, etc. giving you a headache or being unpleasant, it's highly likely it's a low cost implementation and it has high flicker. If you are in an office, I am not a fan of the new flat panels that are all the rage. They can have high glare, thought most LCD screens are fairly glare resistant unlike old CRTs.

    Standard 80-85 CRI, Tri-phosphor fluorescent tubes also have a lot of blue too. It's like these people have suddenly discovered LED lighting and want to come across as relevant, when they are mainly being pedantic and not terribly informative.

  13. #13

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns




    Last edited by MeMeMe; 05-21-2019 at 08:21 AM.

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by MeMeMe View Post
    What type of panel in the ceiling do you mean? Is this home or work?

    If it is work, it is not 1300 or 1500 lumens, it is likely 2*2 feet, or 600*600mm and 3500-4000 lumens. It is almost most likely 4000K, by far the most popular for lighting in much of the world for commercial, though you see a lot of 5000K in Asia.

    It's not the 3000K or 4000, etc. giving you a headache or being unpleasant, it's highly likely it's a low cost implementation and it has high flicker. If you are in an office, I am not a fan of the new flat panels that are all the rage. They can have high glare, thought most LCD screens are fairly glare resistant unlike old CRTs.

    Standard 80-85 CRI, Tri-phosphor fluorescent tubes also have a lot of blue too. It's like these people have suddenly discovered LED lighting and want to come across as relevant, when they are mainly being pedantic and not terribly informative.
    I've found a good way to test for the existence of light flicker is by recording some 240FPS high speed video with a smart phone.

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    @mememe
    The numbers were from a panel in an apartment but though they are unpleasant and I donít like em they donít cause problems, the one that gave me headaches was at work and I had to wear a hat to keep the glare out of my eyes. It was a 3íx3í and definitely above 5k very intense... and yes cheap implementation by someone who didnít understand what the problem was... but they didnít work under this light for hours at a time either
    On my pc I have the color turned down as well as my iPhone and no problems
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  16. #16

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Personally I have found the danger caused by cool white LED's was mainly in my sleep cycle. I didn't know it was happening but lack of solid sleep was driving me nuts and messing with my health. Now I avoid any cool white lights/blue LED screen tints in the evening and all is much better.

    I do worry that cities trying to save money will switch out their street lights with LED's of the wrong tint that will have subtle effects on a population.

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Anthony View Post
    Personally I have found the danger caused by cool white LED's was mainly in my sleep cycle. I didn't know it was happening but lack of solid sleep was driving me nuts and messing with my health. Now I avoid any cool white lights/blue LED screen tints in the evening and all is much better.

    I do worry that cities trying to save money will switch out their street lights with LED's of the wrong tint that will have subtle effects on a population.
    I wonder if this is why I m sleeping better now too? Hadnít really thought about it but makes sense.

    Regarding cities, itís already happening everywhere, too bright, crap tint, very unpleasant. They donít realize if the drop the tint color they can also decrease the output as you can see better. I have several lights from one company ranging from 4k with a Nichia 219b, 219c at 5700, xpg3 at 5k and xpg2 at 6000 give or take. All between 200 - 325 lumens and they all have no adverse affect on the eyes.
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    Regarding cities, itís already happening everywhere, too bright, crap tint, very unpleasant. They donít realize if the drop the tint color they can also decrease the output as you can see better.
    I'm forced to use yellow tint clip on lenses on my glasses when driving in areas like that.

  19. #19

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by TechGuru View Post
    I'm forced to use yellow tint clip on lenses on my glasses when driving in areas like that.
    i use those yellow glasses too, very helpful, oncoming lights, even thou still bright, do not bother me nearly as much.

  20. #20

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    there is lots of blue light in tv screen, when you look as someones window, who has lights off and tv on, it looks blue, lately tvs got bigger and brighter, maybe it has more to do with sleep pattern disorder, we also watch more tv now than ever. i wonder if studies took that into account

  21. #21

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    the

    Regarding cities, itís already happening everywhere, too bright, crap tint, very unpleasant. They donít realize if the drop the tint color they can also decrease the output as you can see better.
    You would be hard pressed to find anything installed in last 3-5 years over 5k outdoors by a city /municipality. That said your hypothesis wrt seeing better with low CCT is not supported by evidence once you get below say 5500

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alpg88 View Post
    there is lots of blue light in tv screen, when you look as someones window, who has lights off and tv on, it looks blue, lately tvs got bigger and brighter, maybe it has more to do with sleep pattern disorder, we also watch more tv now than ever. i wonder if studies took that into account
    Out of Cool, Normal, Warm, Warm2 I set all of my TV's to Warm2...

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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by TechGuru View Post
    I'm forced to use yellow tint clip on lenses on my glasses when driving in areas like that.
    I ve thought of that but now out in the country so no need for em. I donít have a tv either but was going to say those are the (cool) lights and the reason they seem too bright is cause they arenít natural to our brain so are more intense to us. If you want a light to use to see depth and color go with warm or hi cri and if you want light for defense purposes then go cool white just not TOO cool
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  24. #24

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    I can add some information to the topic.

    I work in the industry and part of my job is to look at the latest trends and research into the fotobiological side.
    I get the latest information regularly from the most known Czech authority on this topic Mr Hynek Merdricky.

    Blue light content in white led's is very harmful to your sleep at night.
    Even little exposure to a blue light source makes big impact on the melatonin (sleep hormone) in humans body.
    Simple warm white led is not the answer, still too much blue.
    The only safe light source at night is PC amber led (1600-1800k), combination of amber and red led's or incandescent.

    The's lots of evidence and research in this filed.

    A can see the new neutral and cold white led streetlights replaced for pc amber ones in next few years.
    Some more enlightened cities already have rules not to use more than 3000k with amber lights only allowed near nature reservation sites.

    Modern well designed street fixtures with pc amber look great.

  25. #25

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by nicelightsman View Post
    I can add some information to the topic.

    I work in the industry and part of my job is to look at the latest trends and research into the fotobiological side.
    I get the latest information regularly from the most known Czech authority on this topic Mr Hynek Merdricky.

    Blue light content in white led's is very harmful to your sleep at night.
    Even little exposure to a blue light source makes big impact on the melatonin (sleep hormone) in humans body.
    Simple warm white led is not the answer, still too much blue.
    The only safe light source at night is PC amber led (1600-1800k), combination of amber and red led's or incandescent.

    The's lots of evidence and research in this filed.

    A can see the new neutral and cold white led streetlights replaced for pc amber ones in next few years.
    Some more enlightened cities already have rules not to use more than 3000k with amber lights only allowed near nature reservation sites.

    Modern well designed street fixtures with pc amber look great.
    pc amber?? i know yellow and pc yellow, but what wavelength is pc amber?

  26. #26

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    I ve thought of that but now out in the country so no need for em. I donít have a tv either but was going to say those are the (cool) lights and the reason they seem too bright is cause they arenít natural to our brain so are more intense to us. If you want a light to use to see depth and color go with warm or hi cri and if you want light for defense purposes then go cool white just not TOO cool
    Again nothing to support this hypothesis. You will see more colors accurately with a cooler high CRI source. Warm does not allow differentiation of blue colors.

  27. #27

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by nicelightsman View Post
    I work in the industry and part of my job is to look at the latest trends and research into the fotobiological side.
    I get the latest information regularly from the most known Czech authority on this topic Mr Hynek Merdricky.
    I am thinking if you worked seriously in this field and with your good command of English you would know it's photobiological, not Foto ...

    You won't see PC amber streetlights in any significant usage in cities and municipalities as it results in poor peripheral vision just like old HPS and people prefer the new LED street lights, most of which are 4K when installed new. As you noted lower CCT being used near natural areas but especially where sea creatures use land for spawning. As much or more important is controlling dispersion so little direct light goes toward the sea, etc.

    Incandescent has enough blue to suppress melatonin if bright enough especially halogen (which is an incandescent source).

  28. #28

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    And Merdricky is not a recognized expert in this field but he appears to be a good marketer. He is not saying anything that was not said 10+ years ago. His biodynamic light does not have any special aspects that was not illustrated in outdoor lights with similar goals again 10+years ago.

  29. #29

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Phospor converted amber. It's a wider spectrum than just a peak.
    https://www.cree.com/led-components/.../XLampXPE2.pdf
    page 12.
    Its a blue chip with a big load of luminophore.
    it has a tiny peak at blue (2-4%) and everything else green and up.
    CRI about 60.

    2 MeMeMe
    Man, don't nitpick at minor spelling mistakes, if your native language is Čeötina, its a very easy mistake to do.
    Some cities already prefer lower cri, because it has a lesser effect to wildlife, especially bugs.
    Yes, radiation characteristic should be well designed too.
    Yes, I should say under driven and non-halogen incandescent, well done to pick this up.

    Hynek is regarded as expert by everyone i know in this field.
    He raises awareness and i have seen many manufacturers of outdoor light fixtures bend under the weight of arguments and admit that there's something wrong with 4000k CRI70 and they should educate the customers better and push at least warm white or PC amber.

    Im not here to convince you. Just wanted to share my opinion.

    And if i donn't work in the industry, how would i get this many led's ?
    https://youtu.be/Q5pw0wZROSI

  30. #30

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by nicelightsman View Post
    Phospor converted amber. It's a wider spectrum than just a peak.
    https://www.cree.com/led-components/.../XLampXPE2.pdf
    page 12.
    Its a blue chip with a big load of luminophore.
    it has a tiny peak at blue (2-4%) and everything else green and up.
    CRI about 60.

    2 MeMeMe
    Man, don't nitpick at minor spelling mistakes, if your native language is Čeötina, its a very easy mistake to do.
    Some cities already prefer lower cri, because it has a lesser effect to wildlife, especially bugs.
    Yes, radiation characteristic should be well designed too.
    Yes, I should say under driven and non-halogen incandescent, well done to pick this up.

    Hynek is regarded as expert by everyone i know in this field.
    He raises awareness and i have seen many manufacturers of outdoor light fixtures bend under the weight of arguments and admit that there's something wrong with 4000k CRI70 and they should educate the customers better and push at least warm white or PC amber.

    Im not here to convince you. Just wanted to share my opinion.

    And if i donn't work in the industry, how would i get this many led's ?
    https://youtu.be/Q5pw0wZROSI
    I am not nitpicking spelling, I am calling BS.

    PC Amber has a CRI of about 40, awful color gamut, and is poor for peripheral vision. Good for highways, poor for city/municipal and parking lots.

    Hynek is pretty much a nobody, but a good marketer. He just goes off the real research done by others.

    Generally, if someone is out on a street driving, you want them awake and alert, not sleepy. To that end, some blue to enhance mental acuity is not a bad thing at all. PC Amber does not enhance alertness, nor work as well w.r.t. peripheral vision. At highway speeds, focussing on our narrow color vision (2 degrees) is acceptable, but for local roads, enhanced peripheral vision both for driving and for pedestrian avoidance is not something PC amber is going to provide. Even warm white is poor at this (as is incandescent and halogen).

    I am calling into question your claim w.r.t. primary responsibility of trends and research into photobiology ... and no, not really an easy mistake as you seem to have a good command of English, and if this was your primary field, well ....

    I hope your megalumen is only for very short duration usage. At 3500 - 5000 watts, without serious forced air across across the heatsink, it is going to get pretty hot. That looks like a generic 250-300watt (ish), generic "off-shore" area light casing.

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