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Thread: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

  1. #61
    usdiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Alpha bravo thanks for those links. For 16 years I was in the uk and never realized I hated artificial light so much. It ruins the night. The sodium or orange looking lamps aren’t hard on the eyes but they still ruin any beauty of the night that you would otherwise see. Cool white lights though, my gosh they actually are very unpleasant for me and cause me issues. Maybe if folks putting these things in would do a bit of research they’d have a reasonable understanding
    Don’t Tread On Me

  2. #62

    Default Re: LED lights in your house can cause irreversible damage to the eyes and lead to a

    Quote Originally Posted by TechGuru View Post
    LED lights in your house can cause irreversible damage to the eyes and lead to a vision-robbing condition, French health authority warns...


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7032303/LED-lights-irreversibly-damage-eyes-French-health-authority-warns.html
    This is the exact same as the original post by the OP. It was a very poor study when first posted and still is.

  3. #63

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    You need study to realize what’s best for ya?
    Working nightshifts only i can say, for my self, that anything cooler than 4000K is terible. Using cold colors whole night i cannot go home without headache and anxiety just before sleep.
    That’s why i have converted to incans and R9080 tints

  4. #64

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaBRAVO View Post
    A recent, and interesting read on “light pollution” from National Geographic:

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...on-dark-skies/

    Here in NYC, I can anecdotally relate first-hand, how the new LED street lamps absolutely wreck sleep. One solution being discussed for years now, and that I’ve seen implemented nowhere, is to add shielding.

    https://gothamist.com/2017/04/21/ben...lly_shield.php

    As an aside, don’t neglect to place your phones in “night shift” to sift blue light and shift its spectrum toward red at night. Mine does so automatically based on time or local sunset once I turned it on.
    The NY article is 2 years old and totally irrelevant w.r.t. LED fixtures from any major lighting company. No LED fixture for street lights represents the left 3 pictures. The claims in the comments are laughable. In virtually all cases at angles above street levels, modern LED fixtures put out far less light than old style fixtures that were not full cut-off. What people are mainly complaining about is reflected light.
    Last edited by MeMeMe; 06-17-2019 at 05:57 AM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by MeMeMe View Post
    The NY article is 2 years old and totally irrelevant w.r.t. LED fixtures from any major lighting company. No LED fixture for street lights represents the left 3 pictures.
    This locally sourced article was shared for the proposition that light trespass from NYC's new LED streetlamps could be allayed by better directing them so they shine on the ground where they're supposed to, rather than into residents' homes or drivers' eyes. One way of doing so that has been discussed is through thoughtful use of shielding. To that point, I mentioned I've seen guards implemented nowhere, and for that reason, posted an article entitled
    "NYC Councilman Seeks To Curb Light Pollution By Requiring Guards On Streetlights (APRIL 21, 2017)"


    to support my point that no action has taken place in the two years since a NYC legislator introduced a bill to require streetlight guards.

    The article also cites Susan Harder as authority calling the bill "impressive and necessary." Feel free to quibble with her view, agenda, or motivations—I profess no expertise here.

    "The city's lighting problems are interconnected, according to Susan Harder, the New York state representative for the International Dark Sky Association. She explained:
    Ideally good street lighting involves four components. It has to be fully shielded so all the light goes down, instead of up. It has to be controlled—in other words, the light needs to fall where it’s needed, not shine into people’s windows. It needs to have the correct color, so it’s not very blue. The light levels [where the light hits the ground] shouldn’t exceed the professional recommendations.

    The city’s not doing any of this. They have complete disregard for how [streetlights are] installed. They have complete disregard for this blue problem. They’re installing them so that they’re pointing into people’s windows on the second and third floor."

    Quote Originally Posted by MeMeMe View Post
    In virtually all cases at angles above street levels, modern LED fixtures put out far less light than old style fixtures that were not full cut-off. What people are mainly complaining about is reflected light.
    Even if LED fixtures put out far less light as you assert, the utility of that measure here is belied by the sharp rise in complaints, acknowledged by the City, which it rarely does, post installation. My Muyshondt Beagle may produce less than one lumen on its lowest, moonlight setting, but I challenge you to get restful sleep should I affix its bezel to your eye and shine its light.

    Finally, your point that people are complaining about "reflected light" is flatly contradicted by qualitiative complaints and these images casually plucked from articles in a quick Google search.

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/03/24/nyregion/APPRAISAL2/APPRAISAL2-jumbo.jpg

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/03/23/nyregion/APPRAISALWEB4/APPRAISALWEB4-jumbo.jpg

    a-picture-taken-from-jolantta-benal-s-bedroom-window.jpg


    Anyone with an interest can view typical NYC luminaires here, on p. 146 (section 4.2.2).

    https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downlo...4-lighting.pdf

    (edited to try to fix images that didn't properly post)
    Last edited by alphaBRAVO; 06-17-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaBRAVO View Post
    Ideally good street lighting involves four components. It has to be fully shielded so all the light goes down, instead of up. It has to be controlled—in other words, the light needs to fall where it’s needed, not shine into people’s windows. It needs to have the correct color, so it’s not very blue. The light levels [where the light hits the ground] shouldn’t exceed the professional recommendations.

    The city’s not doing any of this. They have complete disregard for how [streetlights are] installed. They have complete disregard for this blue problem. They’re installing them so that they’re pointing into people’s windows on the second and third floor."
    Sorry, but that is just a guess on your part.

    1) Virtually all modern fixtures from name brand companies (like NY uses) are full cut-off, the proper term, not "fully shielded". Full cutoff is the technical term for all light going down.
    2) All LED fixtures direct light down and are controlled. They have various emission patterns to suit the roadway. They don't shine in people's windows ... though you do get reflections of roads and other surfaces.
    3) They do use professional recommended levels, which does include lighting the sidewalks as well, and given pole restrictions, that may require a bit wider lighting area or levels. You have to hit the minimums everywhere or you have legal issues.
    4) Color ... CCT could be lowered and that is the trend almost everywhere.

  7. #67

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaBRAVO View Post


    Anyone with an interest can view typical NYC luminaires here, on p. 146 (section 4.2.2).

    https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downlo...4-lighting.pdf

    (edited to try to fix images that didn't properly post)
    Did you read or look at this? ... The standard LED fixture is a full cut-off fixture and it is typically a type-1 fixture, which is the narrowest distribution that puts almost all the light on the roadway. Feel free to google Type-1 roadway distribution. They also use Type-2 and 3 as appropriate.

    You will notice they discontinued another type of older style LED streetlight?

    w.r.t. the images, nice picture of someone using sheers and complaining about light ... and without knowing the camera settings these could be long exposures. When you are below the level of the fixture, the fixture will always be the brightest point in the image and can be made to bloom ... that does not mean that is where the majority of the light is entering.

    NY does have residential really close to pavement necessitating trade-offs ... that said, I can play the picture thing too. Look how bright those streetlights look and how bright the street is, while the upper windows on the close by house are pretty much dark. You didn't get that with the old street lights.

  8. #68

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    ... but then again, facts usually win out eventually even on the internet:

    "
    When they were first installed in 2015, some Brooklyn residents complained they were too bright and disrupted their sleep. Mayor Bill de Blasio and the DOT responded to those complaints and took swift action, the agency said.
    “DOT surveyed lighting in those neighborhoods and met with the LED fixture manufacturer, who was able to make a change to a lower wattage (to 72 watts from 78 watts) and switch to a different light fixture that changes the spread of the light,” a DOT spokeswoman said.
    recommended reading Councilman aims for LinkNYCs to include bus times

    The adaptations seem to have worked — elected officials and community leaders say they have not received major complaints about the lights in more than a year. "

    https://www.amny.com/news/led-street...-70-1.14280026

  9. #69
    Administrator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    MeMeMe, you're gone. Hopefully for good this time ?
    Everyone else, please feel free to carry on.

  10. #70
    usdiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    not sure what happened there but I m still trying to catch up on the comments. I can say by experience the sodium (orange colored) street lights seem the most pleasant to look at while providing sufficient lighting without too much glare.
    The led lighting I ve seen isn’t good at all for me at a cool temp but often companies and maintenance pay no attention to the people working or living and do not realize the effect it has on those individuals.
    Don’t Tread On Me

  11. #71

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Yeap, like the title said, that’s the point of this talk in here. Looks like people are raising awerness about this not so small issue.
    BTW thx Kestrel, now it’s more comfortable

  12. #72

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by id30209 View Post
    You need study to realize what’s best for ya?
    Working nightshifts only i can say, for my self, that anything cooler than 4000K is terible. Using cold colors whole night i cannot go home without headache and anxiety just before sleep.
    That’s why i have converted to incans and R9080 tints
    Good for you. I’m with you on this topic. It’s hard these days to escape all artificial lighting. If you can, IMO, stay below 4000K especially hours before bed. There’s a lot to learn on this topic. Just be careful where your sources are coming from.

  13. #73

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    I'm curious as to this research as I grew up with very blue fluorescent lighting F96T12s in stores and businesses I believe were pretty darn blue like 6000K or so why are LEDs considered bluer?
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  14. #74
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    I'm curious as to this research as I grew up with very blue fluorescent lighting F96T12s in stores and businesses I believe were pretty darn blue like 6000K or so why are LEDs considered bluer?
    The typical commonly used "cool white" florescent tubes most businesses and schools etc use are 4100K (see: https://www.lightbulbs.com/product/sylvania-22462/) while typical standard "cool white" LED's are 6000K...

  15. #75

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by TechGuru View Post
    The typical commonly used "cool white" florescent tubes most businesses and schools etc use are 4100K (see: https://www.lightbulbs.com/product/sylvania-22462/) while typical standard "cool white" LED's are 6000K...
    Yes, today you don't see the bluer tubes being sold but I definitely remember the old tubes back when fluorescent tubes were replacing incans in stores and businesses were very very blue cool white and in the 6000-6500 range. The light was harsh and people were complaining about the stress but there was no issues brought up about them being harmful to your eyes for the blue light they put out.
    The biggest complaint was strobing as some folks were sensitive to the flicker that they had similar to PWM I would equate.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    Yes, today you don't see the bluer tubes being sold but I definitely remember the old tubes back when fluorescent tubes were replacing incans in stores and businesses were very very blue cool white and in the 6000-6500 range. The light was harsh and people were complaining about the stress but there was no issues brought up about them being harmful to your eyes for the blue light they put out.
    The biggest complaint was strobing as some folks were sensitive to the flicker that they had similar to PWM I would equate.
    If you’re interested, the book Health and Light by John N. Ott is an extraordinary read and speaks of studies conducted decades back on the very same topic you’re describing about fluorescent lights and stress. It goes deeper into the very fabric of life itself. It seems that the gates on this little secret are still mostly closed even with studies by Dr. John Ott being available to the public for over half a century. He’s not the first to make these discoveries. Nor is he the last. I’m not much of a regular on this forum but for the short time I’ve been apart of it I’m surprised to not see more talks on this topic.

  17. #77

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by CerLo View Post
    If you’re interested, the book Health and Light by John N. Ott is an extraordinary read and speaks of studies conducted decades back on the very same topic you’re describing about fluorescent lights and stress. It goes deeper into the very fabric of life itself. It seems that the gates on this little secret are still mostly closed even with studies by Dr. John Ott being available to the public for over half a century. He’s not the first to make these discoveries. Nor is he the last. I’m not much of a regular on this forum but for the short time I’ve been apart of it I’m surprised to not see more talks on this topic.
    I think the issue brought up was less about stress but about messing up sleep patterns. I personally worked in a large store with the old blueish F96T12 fixtures even replacing the bulbs many times over a period of a few years. I never had any issues with sleep back then or anything remotely related to lighting at work places using those rather bluish like fixtures from the mid 70s to today.
    Now I'm not going to say that there is no merit to blue LEDs and sleep as I've not invested in LED lighting on a level that would make it my main lighting source around here and jobs I've had there haven't been any LED lighting till recently. I have used LED flashlights that were in the 6500K range as many of the first LED lights were very bluish 5mm based (angry blue) and my CPF name also is related to the blue in the first LEDs in the beginning and stars in a Galaxy that are rather blue.
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  18. #78

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by CerLo View Post
    If you’re interested, the book Health and Light by John N. Ott is an extraordinary read and speaks of studies conducted decades back on the very same topic you’re describing about fluorescent lights and stress.
    The 2000 edition is available online: https://ratical.org/ratville/AoS/HealthAndLight.pdf

  19. #79

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Stress and sleep issues, In this topic, go hand in hand. Cortisol. Melatonin. Both are Hormones that can be excited or depleted by to much of the wrong spectrum of light. I’m not sure it’s the leds itself that’s the issue here. The intensity of the leds projected color spectrum being recieved by the eyes is what should be focused on in this report. Specifically the time of day in which the eyes receive that light. Im not a Dr. nor am I giving medical advice on this topic. I’m simply stating my opinion.

  20. #80

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by frank70 View Post
    The 2000 edition is available online: https://ratical.org/ratville/AoS/HealthAndLight.pdf
    Wow. PDF version. I personally would rather have the book in hand but this is a generous link you provided. I’d encourage everyone interested to read Dr. Otts book. Eye opening!

  21. #81

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Wait a minute..... is that the Dr Ott that has made a lot of money selling Ott lights?
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  22. #82

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    I do believe he did finally have his own production of lights yes. They still are available today I do believe.

  23. #83
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by CerLo View Post
    I do believe he did finally have his own production of lights yes. They still are available today I do believe.
    Definitely they are: https://www.ottlite.com/.

  24. #84

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by CerLo View Post
    I do believe he did finally have his own production of lights yes. They still are available today I do believe.
    This is concerning to me as I remember Ott lights were very pricey when they came out and it could mean that Ott was making a lot of money off his research and if it were found to be less of a concern it wouldn't profit him to reveal he was wrong, instead he would be encouraged (biased) to say things are worse than they truly are. I just got through reading some research about the "blue" light thing and water is blue and the sky is blue a lot bluer than LED lighting and it doesn't seem to bother folks any.
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  25. #85

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    This is concerning to me as I remember Ott lights were very pricey when they came out and it could mean that Ott was making a lot of money off his research and if it were found to be less of a concern it wouldn't profit him to reveal he was wrong, instead he would be encouraged (biased) to say things are worse than they truly are. I just got through reading some research about the "blue" light thing and water is blue and the sky is blue a lot bluer than LED lighting and it doesn't seem to bother folks any.
    Im not here to start a typing war. Ill leave with saying that there’s a lot to learn on this topic. It can go a lot of ways. I hope everyone exercises their ability to think for themselves on issues like this.

  26. #86

    Default Re: LED lights damage eyes and disturb sleep, European health authority warns

    Quote Originally Posted by CerLo View Post
    Im not here to start a typing war. Ill leave with saying that there’s a lot to learn on this topic. It can go a lot of ways. I hope everyone exercises their ability to think for themselves on issues like this.
    I'm not wanting to start a heated argument either, I just think that there is a lot of people out there that are "experts" that may be on to something but at times because of the attention and their ego (and profit) that are too invested in something to want to tell folks that it isn't quite as serious as they say it is because it could greatly reduce their fame and affect their pocketbook. I saw how pricey Ott lights were and were not sold on them at all when they came out but I did consider that there may be people that are may be overly sensitive to bluish lights and have sleep problems with it like I think some people are greatly bothered by the old fluorescent flickering lights and also may have severe issues with PWM in lighting too. I think today most LED lights aren't greatly tilted to the blue spectrum that is used for residential and commercial lighting and that there have been LED TV sets sold with seemingly no great issues with the blue tint in LED backlights in them.
    I'm a proponent of neutral to warm LED lighting as it is more relaxing and better color rendition overall but have had angry blue LED lights and using them for hours I've never noticed any issues sleeping.
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