Why do they not recommend 1 emitter

staticx57

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The LED makes it easy for current to flow, therefor if you a FET driver which let's the LED have all the current it can get you will overwhelm the LED and burn it up.
 

trailhunter

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Ah so it drinks more than it can handle? how do I calculate it so I configure it as a single led in respect to choosing a suitable driver.

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lightfooted

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LEDs act more like a resistor than anything else, without regulation of some type they will simply conduct current through themselves until the heat being dissipated is enough to melt the compounds that they are made of. That can be a problem since it doesn't necessarily mean that current flow stops just because the chip stops emitting light.
 

trailhunter

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Ok thanks for the feedback. I'll have to process this and take it into consideration as I start my journey building my own lights. think I need fo learn about FET drivers and how they can be toned down to support single emitters.

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DIWdiver

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To be more clear, they are recommending you not use this particular emitter with unregulated drivers and batteries where other emitters might work fine. That's because the voltage drop (Vf) of this emitter at working currents is quite low. That would cause the unregulated driver to give it more current than you expect. Many modern batteries could easily supply enough current to damage the emitter.

Unregulated (aka 'direct drive', or DD) lights, FET drivers included, have been around a long time. The cheap give-away lights are all DD. They don't even have a FET, just battery, LED, and switch. They depend on the internal resistance of the batteries and LEDs to limit the current. Many of them use 3x AAA alkaline cells, which have quite high internal resistance. Smaller ones use coin cells, which have even higher resistance.

By contrast, an FET driver is normally used with LiIon cells and high-power LEDs, which both have substantially lower resistance. In the past, the LED's Vf was close enough to the battery voltage that the fairly low resistances were enough to limit current to safe levels (albeit much higher than in a give-away).

But with today's super-low resistance FETs, high-drain cells that can provide 35A or more, and with every generation of LED having lower Vf than the last, it's quite easy to put together a DD light that will self-destruct in seconds.

That's what they are warning you about.

The way to "tone down" any DD light is to ensure that there is enough resistance in the circuit to limit current to safe levels. In the past it's been easy enough to find this resistance in the batteries, FETs, LEDs, wires, springs, etc. In fact if you go back far enough in history or cheap out enough, it's hard not to find this resistance in the components. A lot of the history of high-end DD lights is about getting the resistance low enough to get incredible outputs from the lights.

Or you could just go with a regulated light.
 

trailhunter

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To be more clear, they are recommending you not use this particular emitter with unregulated drivers and batteries where other emitters might work fine. That's because the voltage drop (Vf) of this emitter at working currents is quite low. That would cause the unregulated driver to give it more current than you expect. Many modern batteries could easily supply enough current to damage the emitter.

Unregulated (aka 'direct drive', or DD) lights, FET drivers included, have been around a long time. The cheap give-away lights are all DD. They don't even have a FET, just battery, LED, and switch. They depend on the internal resistance of the batteries and LEDs to limit the current. Many of them use 3x AAA alkaline cells, which have quite high internal resistance. Smaller ones use coin cells, which have even higher resistance.

By contrast, an FET driver is normally used with LiIon cells and high-power LEDs, which both have substantially lower resistance. In the past, the LED's Vf was close enough to the battery voltage that the fairly low resistances were enough to limit current to safe levels (albeit much higher than in a give-away).

But with today's super-low resistance FETs, high-drain cells that can provide 35A or more, and with every generation of LED having lower Vf than the last, it's quite easy to put together a DD light that will self-destruct in seconds.

That's what they are warning you about.

The way to "tone down" any DD light is to ensure that there is enough resistance in the circuit to limit current to safe levels. In the past it's been easy enough to find this resistance in the batteries, FETs, LEDs, wires, springs, etc. In fact if you go back far enough in history or cheap out enough, it's hard not to find this resistance in the components. A lot of the history of high-end DD lights is about getting the resistance low enough to get incredible outputs from the lights.

Or you could just go with a regulated light.
Thanks, so when building/modding a light. I need to watch out for emitters that are not capable of DD (no resistance drivers) and they are usually marked or marketed as low vf?

Is it safe to guess that the noctigon drivers would all support a single low vf emitter irrespective of using a high drain battery?



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grayjay70

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Thanks, so when building/modding a light. I need to watch out for emitters that are not capable of DD (no resistance drivers) and they are usually marked or marketed as low vf?

Is it safe to guess that the noctigon drivers would all support a single low vf emitter irrespective of using a high drain battery?

Noctigon is supplier of the MCPCB which is just a "dumb" board that connects the LED to the driver and provides path for heat to dissipate, the MCPCB is not the driver. A linear driver using 7135 chips will prevent the amps from exceeding a set level so is probably a better choice for the setup you are proposing (single low vf LED, high drain battery) as the driver will prevent a 100% direct drive meltdown.
 

DIWdiver

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Thanks, so when building/modding a light. I need to watch out for emitters that are not capable of DD (no resistance drivers) and they are usually marked or marketed as low vf?

Is it safe to guess that the noctigon drivers would all support a single low vf emitter irrespective of using a high drain battery?



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I agree with what grayjay70 said. Also, some buck and buck-boost switching regulators would work with this setup, and can be more efficient than linear drivers.

Low Vf emitters may well NOT be marked or marketed as such, though if you dig very hard, you'll usually find some mention of Vf, especially if it's low. You should always be able to find that information in the datasheet.
 

badtziscool

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The ultimate goal is to not allow too much power to the LED. How you do that can be done in various ways but the most common way is to use a driver that limits the current and maintains a specific voltage to the LED. Some drivers, however are designed to basically "open the flood gates" and allow as much current to the LED as the battery can possibly provide. Some LEDs can handle the power without going :poof: Others, like the Nichia 219b, cannot, and hence the warning by MTN. Wiring multiple LEDs together, like in a triple or quad setup distributes the power, so collectively they can handle a DD or FET setup.
 

trailhunter

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Are drivers smart in a sense that they know how much the emitter can handle or is the driver normally stuck on a specific power output? I suppose I'm asking this so I know how to pair emitters (single or multi) to drivers.

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staticx57

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Are drivers smart in a sense that they know how much the emitter can handle or is the driver normally stuck on a specific power output? I suppose I'm asking this so I know how to pair emitters (single or multi) to drivers.

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Drivers are not smart that way, you as the builder are supposed to be. If you do a google search for ____ LED output test you will find what you need based upon what people have done experimentally. You also have to consider voltage sag on the cell as well. If a emitter gives up the ghost at 5 amps but 5 amps is at 4.5 volts and it is fine at 4.1 volts you don't really have a problem as your cell doesn't go that high.
 

trailhunter

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Drivers are not smart that way, you as the builder are supposed to be. If you do a google search for ____ LED output test you will find what you need based upon what people have done experimentally. You also have to consider voltage sag on the cell as well. If a emitter gives up the ghost at 5 amps but 5 amps is at 4.5 volts and it is fine at 4.1 volts you don't really have a problem as your cell doesn't go that high.
Oh I see, where they graph and provide detailed output, I'll leverage those.

So, regarding switches. I've noticed based on emitter and power requirements, switches are must have upgrades, how do people determine resistance requirements to figure out that your switch is not a single point of failure?

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badtziscool

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The only concern with switches is the amount of current going through them and what the switch is rated for. Go higher than its rated current and things start to heat up and fail. Some will solder a wire in parallel to the spring to help it handle a bit more current than its rated, but I wouldn't expect too much out of it.

Electronic switches are a whole different story.

Yes, those graphs are invaluable to the modding community. It's amazing sometimes to see how much more power some LEDs can take over the manufacturer's rating. Just know that when you start pushing LEDs beyond its current rating, you can expect much shorter life out of it.

Oh I see, where they graph and provide detailed output, I'll leverage those.

So, regarding switches. I've noticed based on emitter and power requirements, switches are must have upgrades, how do people determine resistance requirements to figure out that your switch is not a single point of failure?

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trailhunter

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Is a direct driver aka fet driver and the amount of current is determined by the amounts of fets soldered onto the board?

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DIWdiver

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The number of FETs soldered on the board has some impact on the current, but it's not proportional. The resistance of the driver is lowered by adding more FETs, and the current is determined by the total resistance in the light, including from the LED, battery, switch, driver, springs, and any other bits and pieces that current flows through. The FETs are likely to represent a small portion of the total resistance, so adding FETs doesn't reduce the total much.
 
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