SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions....

First, I have some comments on the SureFire L1 and the "not yet released" SureFire L2.................
About a month ago, I had considered the L1 before I heard of the L2, but decided that to have a light with a switchable 13 and 20 lumen output, wouldn't serve my lighting needs well. There is very little difference between a person's perception of the L1's 13 and 20 lumen outputs. I think that SureFire had designed this light to see if a switchable light would sell in a one watt LED/one CR123 battery market. After seeing how well it has done, they have delved into the five watt LED/two CR123 battery arena. Keep in mind that according to SureFire's new "2004 Illumination Tools" catalog, their only dual beam LED lights are the L1 and L2. Anyone wanting this beautifully made catalog, should call SureFire, ASAP. It is done much better than their 2003 catalog, in so many areas.

I am sure that all of us would appreciate a five watt Luxeon LED light, with a 15 lumen low and a 65 lumen high output? Consider this....I recently bought an ARC LSH-S. The advertised 14-17 lumen output is plenty light for most low to medium level applications. In addition, I recently bought an ARC LSH-P. The advertised 22-25 lumen output is not that much brighter than that of the LSH-S. I returned the premium light to ARC. My point is that if either 14-17 lumens or 22-25 lumens is sufficient for our needs, then if we were in the market for a dual output device, why wouldn't we want to own a light that gives off an appreciably higher light output...........like 65 lumens? It makes sense to me. I have never seen a small flashlight that gives off 65 lumens. I am new in the LED game. The closest to this output is my 41 lumen Pelican M6 LED light. That output is blinding. I would imagine that a 65 lumen light would be much more "exciting."

Now to the questions.............
Logic dictates that the tailswitch on the L2 will be the same as the one on the L1. Therefore, I am asking any L1 owners what they think of the dual beam tailswitch of their light? Are there any known flaws in it? Has anyone had to return the light, due to tailswitch failure or erratic behavior? Is very little pressure needed to engage the low, high, and momentary functions? Can one "feel" when the switch is engaged?

For those interested in the L2, SureFire has told me that it will be available in 8 weeks. I am counting the days........

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

luxlover,

As it's been stated in some other threads, the 13 lumen "low" level of the L1 is not the case. The low output is considerably less than that; probably around 1 or 2 lumens.

The two stage switch used on the L1 and A2 *did* have a problem early on due to a lack of correct travel stop causing some units to have some contact leaf springs break. This issue was resolved. The design and function of the two stage switch is nicely done, IMHO and their is enough travel distance required between the low and the high that it is easy to select your level without going beyond, again, IMHO.

The method of switching between the two levels and the value of having two levels has completely spoiled me and I won't go back. In retrospect, I think the most important advancement last year in flashlights was this two stage function. I think that other issues, with both the A2 and L1, clouded the great function and significant improvement provided by this two stage tail switch.

One final comment on the L2, make sure you understand the difference between lux and lumens! Your Pelican M6 LED will no doubt have a higher lux reading than the L2. The output of the L2 should be comperable to the L4 on high level and then the long run time and uselful low level will be comperable to say the Arc 4 at one of its lower settings.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

Thank you. Good reply! After carefully studying the new SureFire catalog from cover to cover, and looking at all of the models in all classes for all applications, I find that the greatest innovation for hand carry type users is the dual beam tailswitch. By the time the L2 will be available, any glitches in the tailswitch should be nonexistent.

And thank you for the advice on comparing the 65 lumen output on the L2 with that of the L4. They should be exactly the same to the eye. As for comparing the 15 lumen level of the L2 with a lower level on the ARC4, I have no way to do this physically. But as I have stated, I have the Arc LSH-S, and numerically that is equivalent to the low beam on the L2.

I remember now that many writers have reported a 1 or 2 lumen output in the L1's low beam mode. So why does SureFire now rate the L1 as having 13 and 20 lumen levels? Presently, the SureFire website rates the L1's high beam to be 15 lumens, and doesn't post the low beam output. What is this all about? Maybe they got all kinds of flack for this, and decided to let us know the real numbers in their new catalog?

Based on your enthusiasm over the L1, will you be in the market for the L2?

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

luxlover,

I don't know how incorrect specs got into the catalog but it has happened in the past and will certainly happen again..

My enthusiasm for the L1 is based on what it does and how it works. However, for my needs and wants, I have taken the L1 and completely modified it. From my perspective and set of requirements, one of my modified L1's is what I would prefer the L2 to be. By that, I mean a light consisting of 2x123 cells, a constant current driver with an output around 900 mA on high and Lux III as the light source.

Certainly I want to get my hands on a L2 and I might quite possibly be underestimating its value, as is. However, I am more interested in the U2 as a varible output host for the Luxeon 5W.

A common theme in many posts now for upcoming lights ( the VIP ) as well as retro fits and mods ( two stage fire-fly and others) is the key feature of varible output. There are various ways of functionally achieving and switching between levels and it will be up to the individual to chose which method best suits his (her) needs. Quick momentary activation of the two levels is a high priority for me so I like the way the L1/A2/L2 switch "shifts" through the two levels. In some applications, and likely high on other folks priority, might be quick activation of constant on, in which case the two stage switch design of the L1/A2/L2 will NOT be the best system. Both the U2 and VIP will have the quick access of both momentary and constant on via a tail "clickie" switch with the level selection available through a second switch. A further advantage to these latter examples is multiple output levels; not just two.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

Not trying to hijack the thread. Would a U2 with a 2 stage clickie give you twice as many settings? 20 vs. 10? Just a question to ponder. 10 hi and a 10 lo? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

Do you think that SureFire is messing with us, with their inflated (?) specs? The L1 is rated at 13 lumens but really delivers 1 or 2?

Your taste is impeccable! The only thing that scares me away from the U2 Ultra, is the price. Jumping jiminy! That pup costs $270 smackers. Do you know how many 2D MagLites I could buy with that money? JUST KIDDING, BOYS AND GIRLS!!!!! I could get killed or worse, for comments like this!

Really now, who can resist a range of 2 lumens to 100 lumens in a light. SureFire is still testing the "switchable output" waters. This is a big test. If this flies, we can expect many new switchable models from them next year. Mark my words!

As a result of your statement about the methods of switch activation in a multi-level light, I have these questions. Does the tailswitch of the L1 (and probably the L2) have three positions........push lightly for momentary and release for off, push a little further until you lock the switch in low beam, and push a little further until you lock the switch in high beam?

What kind of electrical component do you think is used to give the 2-100 lumen range of the U2 Ultra? A high wattage variable resistor? Any idea on the runtime at the 100 lumen level?

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

[ QUOTE ]
luxlover said:
Do you think that SureFire is messing with us, with their inflated (?) specs? The L1 is rated at 13 lumens but really delivers 1 or 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Luxlover, as mentioned, this is most probably a typographical error. Perhaps the decimal point was omitted. I don't recall Surefire ever being known to inflate their lights' outputs.

Actually, they are known for taking pains to be accurate.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

[ QUOTE ]
luxlover said:
As a result of your statement about the methods of switch activation in a multi-level light, I have these questions. Does the tailswitch of the L1 (and probably the L2) have three positions........push lightly for momentary and release for off, push a little further until you lock the switch in low beam, and push a little further until you lock the switch in high beam?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Luxlover:

I have one of Don's souped up 2x123 L1 with a PRT-917 head. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif Don't have a standard L1, but I believe that the tail operation hasn't changed.

Two positions only, sorry. Push a little for low, push harder for high. No clickie to lock the light on.

To have the light on (instead of momentary), you twist the switch a little for low and twist a little more for high.

No idea about the L2, sorry.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

luxlover,

SF is notorious for being conservative on luminous output. The 13 lumens on low of the L1 is simply NOT CORRECT!

The twostage SF switch works by initial contact through a resistor and then contact direct with no resistance.You can either depress the tail switch through these two stages for momentary or screw the tail cap down for first low constant on with ability to shift to high momentarily and then further tightening of the cap takes you to constant on in high.There is no clickie or latching of the switch in a constant on short of screwing the cap down. I hope I explained this but wouldn't be surprised if I didn't.

I think the U2 is going to be quite a light but frankly, I think there are diminishing returns as the number of levels increases. With some bench testing and goofing around, I like to see each increase in luminous output at about 8X to 10X the previous level. Such increases are significant and noticeable. A mere doubling of output sounds like a lot and may measure as double but in use, it really isn't noticeable unless you are at the limit of a lights effective range. Yeah, that probably doesn't seem to make sense either but I think actual experimenting will support my findings to some extent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Docsmyname,

I believe the U2 uses hall effect switches in a circuit to dictate the current level to the LED with all being in regulation. This is over my head but I would guess placing a resistor in the tailswitch might give you an aditional level by pulling the driver out of regulation but I have no idea if the circuit, once out of regulation, would respond with a varying level of output predicated by the hall effect swith that was selected. My gut guess is that you would just kill eficiencies with no real gain. Once the U2's are in population, it will take just seconds for someone tocomplete the circuit in the tail with a resistor and see what happens. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

McGizmo, thanks, sounds like the flash light world will be a different place once the U2 is examined! Thanks again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

don: does that mean that even if i tighten the new A2/L1 tailcap all the way down, the leaf springs will not break?

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

I don't think a decimal point was omitted anywhere. It is only coincidental that either 1.3 lumens or 13 lumens appear to be the output. Nobody would post a light output in decimals. They would either post it as 1 or 2 lumens. I am still skeptical of the discrepency between forum owners of the L1, and the catalog specs! Do other light manufacturers post outputs as low as 1 or 2 lumens?

As much as everybody claims SureFire has conservative methods and is brutally honest, I wonder why they have offered the 15 lumen high beam output and not that of the low beam? Isn't the L1 a dual beam light? And if it is, shouldn't the prospective owner know what both outputs levels are, "before buying?"

Something is not too proper in this omission, since I have never seen the L1's low output level posted anywhere except in the 2004 catalog.........

Any explanation?

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

Thank you for the workings of the L1. I hope that the tailswitch in the L2 is all inclusive.........momentary low beam, lock-on low beam, momentary high beam, lock-on high beam.

On the issue of published low beam output of the L1, if SureFire made a "typo", then I found that same "typo" in three places in the 2004 catalog.......the text on the top of page 38, the specs. on the top of page 40, and the overall product specs. on page 97.

Why am I such a pest about this? Very simply, I am interested in the soon to be released L2. I don't want to have to deal with any "typo" when I buy it. I want 20 and 65 lumens in my light, and not 1.3 and 65 lumens! Can you blame me?

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

I am about to quote from the middle of page 26, in SureFire's 2004 catalog.......
"The new click-on tailcaps are available as accessories and also come standard on several LED models. The clickie still allows momentary-on activation for tactical situations, but also permits the user to press firmly to click on the light for constant-on illumination."

Isn't this different than the way you describe it works? Could they have improved the switch from the L1 you are familiar with?

Yes, the U2 looks very promising indeed. It is out of my price range, but I am curious as to how the six position switch will function.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

chamenos,

From looking at the switch assembly, it appears to me that the plastic portion that holds the battery contact spring will botom out on the battery prior to an over compresion of the leaf contacts. I have seen or heard no mention of these leaf contacts breaking on the new version of the switch.

As to the discrepency of the rating on the low level output, I haven't a clue but do know that the current L1's, in low, are way below 13 lumens! Now since the low is achieved by a resistor dropping the driver out of regulation and consequently the LED is being direct driven at a voltage below Vf, the luminous output will depend on the actual Vf of the LED probably. If this variation is significant enough, I could see where an actual number might not be provided. This is purte speculation on my part here! I also understand from "sources" that the L1, like most SF lights, is not a final and locked in stone design. It may be that changes are planned for the L1 and stated specs are in anticipation of this???

As to the click-on tail caps, the L1 tail cap is NOT one of these, pure and simple. This refers to the Z57 and its bigger brother on the L5 and L6 (I don't know part number).

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

SureFire make flashlights - getting the runtime/output ratings from Engineering to Marketing and out of the door for publication during development is not easy.
For one thing, some ratings may not have been rated, or the values changed at the last minutes.

Ever since I got into SureFires, SureFire have been working very hard to improve communication regarding their product range and they have come a long way. There is still much to be done and with such a large and complicated range, it's almost impossible not to slip up.

Listen up and listen good!

The L1, A2 and L2 use the same two-stage TailCap.
This TailCap has been revises several times and is now very durable.
Most SureFire products are revised and tweeked. SureFires evolve. Just to make things more complicated of course.

The TailCaps luxlover is referring to are the Z57, Z58 and Z59 Click-on. These are NOT the same as the two-stage TailCap.

The Two-Stage pressure switch TailCap used by the L1, A2 and L2 has the following switch positions give the following outputs when the switch is pressed, and pressed harder.

Locked Out - Both levels Disabled
[rotate clockwise]
Low beam - Momentary; Main beam Disabled
[rotate clockwise]
Low beam - Momentary; Main beam - Momentary
[rotate clockwise]
Low beam - Constant-on; Main beam - Momentary
[rotate clockwise]
Main beam Constant-on

Does this make sense?

Al

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

don: i see what you mean, however it seems to me like any variances in the lengths of the batteries might either disable the high-beam or make the leaf springs vulnerable to breaking off again. the leaf springs on my older A2 tailcap broke off mostly when i rotated it to constant on, and it is for that reason i avoided doing the same to the new-version tailcap surefire sent me. none of the tabs have broken off on my new tailcap though, so i'm happy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

chamenos,

I agree that the tolerances are tight. I don't know if overtightening the tail cap could put undue strain on the leafs or not. Of course if the batteries are good and the light functioning, there is no reason to over tighten the switch as you will have a consistant and constant on prior to bottoming out the switch; at least that has been my limited experience.

Al,

Thanks for that clear explaination!

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

thanks don /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif if i ever have an extra A2 tailcap lying around i'll see what it takes to make the leaf springs break /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

however one thing i disliked about the newer tailcap was that its harder to get the threads to catch when attaching it, since you'd have to get the lip of the tailcap slightly over the O-ring before the threads could engage. i actually prefered the geometry of the older tailcap, since i've never found the need to lock out the tailcap on mine due to the tension of the contact spring.

Re: SureFire L1/L2 comments & tailswitch questions

It does seem like theres something odd w/the relatively newer A2/L1 tailcaps. The threads are way too loose compared to the earlier ones. To take up the slack SF sticks a fatter "O" ring in the body.
HA does add "dimension" (maybe .002-005)compared to soft anodizing so maybe it was over compensation?