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View Poll Results: 21700 Malkoff?

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  • 21700, it's time for even longer regulated runtime

    23 65.71%
  • 18650, it's compact, and it's already enough

    12 34.29%
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Thread: 21700 Malkoff possibility

  1. #121

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Personally, I'd be interested in a 21700 version of the Super Hound Dog, using 2-3x 21700's. Keep overall brightness the same, but just boost the overall runtime. If we could hit ~1300lm for 3h, that would be a pretty unrivaled searchlight.

    Or alternatively, perhaps some way to convert the 3C Maglite to 2x 21700?

    C battery = 50mm / 3C = 150mm

    21700 protected = 75mm / 2x =150mm
    Last edited by spyderco monkey; 02-04-2020 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #122
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    I'd like 21700 for super as well, maybe something else too, not sure.

    For maglight, sounds like you just need an adapter for c to 21700, and something like the malkoff module for mag

  3. #123

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Quote Originally Posted by INFRNL View Post
    I'd like 21700 for super as well, maybe something else too, not sure.

    For maglight, sounds like you just need an adapter for c to 21700, and something like the malkoff module for mag
    In your runtime graphs, you have a 'MD6' Super Houndog - I presume using 3x 18650's?:
    [img]https://i.imgur.com/jELpCkH.jpg[/img]

    That would be 10,500mah, about what we'd see with 2x5000mah 21700's. So 1300lm x 1.75hr. Thats very solid.

    Although for a 'Searchlight,' it might be cool to see a 'Super Houndog L" - 650lm x 4hrs+. Something that could actually be used to search for hours at a time.

    In the meantime, I'm going to look more into the possibility of a modded Maglite.

  4. #124
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    yes, MD6=3x 18650. each additional cell only provides 35min more runtime on the super. So if MD8 was possible; you would only see around 2.25hrs of runtime. 21700 would be a bit better but not exactly sure how much you would really gain in runtime. I do not have a host that holds 3x 18650; I had to rig something up to do that MD6 test. The newer version of the super would be slightly more output but most likely less runtime. The gain in output most likely would be minimal to the eye.
    Going from 30lm to 100lm hardly provides any gain; when you are already above 1000lm, 200-300 more lumen will not be noticed much either.

    I am not sure how the High/Low works on a super. If there is a resistor; it might be able to be changed out to get you into that 650lm range. That should get you to the 3hr mark.

    I am not sure how the modules work for the maglights. I am not sure how good runtimes would be. I am also not sure what options you have with maglite as far as a new light or modifying one you already have. Bykefixer (might be spelled wrong) knows quite a bit about mags I think and he likes the malkoff modules for older lights. If you are after a search light; I am not sure what to suggest.

    One thing about the super is it also does really well on the 100lm low mode. Still provides quite a bit of light (more than you would expect) and would save on runtime. I don't know anything about search/rescue; so i am not sure if you need all the light all the time or only for certain periods.

  5. #125

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Quote Originally Posted by INFRNL View Post
    yes, MD6=3x 18650. each additional cell only provides 35min more runtime on the super. So if MD8 was possible; you would only see around 2.25hrs of runtime. 21700 would be a bit better but not exactly sure how much you would really gain in runtime. I do not have a host that holds 3x 18650; I had to rig something up to do that MD6 test. The newer version of the super would be slightly more output but most likely less runtime. The gain in output most likely would be minimal to the eye.
    Going from 30lm to 100lm hardly provides any gain; when you are already above 1000lm, 200-300 more lumen will not be noticed much either.

    I am not sure how the High/Low works on a super. If there is a resistor; it might be able to be changed out to get you into that 650lm range. That should get you to the 3hr mark.
    Yes, I completely agree about the futility of the 'lumens race' past a certain level. Rather then bumping output from 1000lm to 1300 to 1500, I'd much rather see 1000lm retained, and then leveraging LED technology to increase runtime.

    For a 'Searchlight' sized flashlight, I personally think the 100lm low is a bit low.

    Ideally, I'd like to see 100% High - 25% Low for brightness for a searchlight.

    So 21700 Super Houndog ideal?

    1000lm x 4hrs High; 250lm x 12hrs Low

    Of course, I'm not sure whether those runtimes are possible with current LED / 21700 tech.

  6. #126
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Do you currently own a super? I just don't want to say things if you already are aware.
    The 100lm from the super seems like more than it is and might work for closer range searching but can easily be put to high if needed. That's what I was trying to get at last night. 100lm from the super is a lot more useful than one would imagine.

    I also had a thought of a special belt that could hold cells rather than bullets; so you would have plenty of spares readily available.

    Maybe you could talk to Gene and see if he could/would be able to do something that would fit your needs. Could be worth a chat with him. Although, currently there is some redesigning going on. I don't know if he has the ability to adjust the driver for you giving you slightly less output at reduce draw for increased runtime. One time i talked to him and it seemed that it might be a possibility to adjust the driver. Just a thought. However you would still be using 18650 unless you get a 21700 host made for the super.

  7. #127

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Quote Originally Posted by INFRNL View Post
    Do you currently own a super? I just don't want to say things if you already are aware.
    The 100lm from the super seems like more than it is and might work for closer range searching but can easily be put to high if needed. That's what I was trying to get at last night. 100lm from the super is a lot more useful than one would imagine.
    I don't have the Super. I have do have a Armytek Barracuda Pro which has a 170lm x 17H mode, which is a pretty comparable 2x18650 big head searchlight.

    I agree that these big head throwers can absolutely deliver far more 'light per lumen' then a standard flashlight; the Barracuda at 170lm easily out throws my 780lm Quark. I'd say its 4-5x brighter at 100yds.

    That said, the primary mode I use the Barracuda on is 370lm x 6hr. Thats where the sweet spot is in terms of lighting range to runtime. By comparison, I use the max 1150lm mode relatively sparingly, because the runtime is only 1.7hrs, and for most applications, the 370lm + big reflector offers enough range and power.

    Given my experience with the 170lm Barracuda, I don't think the ~80lm of the Hound Dog would really be adequate, especially in an urban area with a lot of background light pollution.

    ----

    Ultimately, the question is:

    "why are we picking a Super Houndog / Armytek Barracuda / XYZ multi-cell searchlight vs a normal, single cell pocket light or single cell thrower?"

    -Large head for improved throw
    -Enhanced runtime due to multi-cells

    That combination is what these Searhlights bring to the table. The result is (or should be) a flashlight that offers long range performance + a long runtime suitable for all night use.

    Right now, the Super Houndog offers a ton of light at High, but not the endurance; per your chart, 1300lm x 70 minutes. If the light is going to be used for multiple hours, that runtime makes Low the default primary mode of the light. And at 80lm for low, thats really not the level of light that makes hauling out a big searchlight worth it.

    Ultimately, the Medium mode was why I went with Barracuda Pro over the Super Houndog.

    ---

    Optimal Searchlight

    Primary Mode = 8-12hrs = the ability to search effectively from dusk to dawn.
    High mode = 2hrs+ = long range capability, with enough runtime to feel comfortable using it

    ---

    Getting back to the 2x21700 Super Hound Dog, here's whats currently out there as a baseline of performance.

    Armytek Barracuda Pro v3, 2x18650:

    350lm x 8hrs
    800lm x 2.8 hrs
    1500lm x 1hr

    AceBeam T28 1x 21700
    550lm x 4.5hrs
    1380lm x 1.5hrs

    -->

    Based on the above A 2x21700 should be able to do around:

    350lm x 12hrs
    550lm x 8hrs
    1000lm x 3-4hrs

    Ideally, thats what I'd love to see with a 21700 Super Houndog. 1000lm high x 3hr + 350lm x 12hr.

    Just a hardworking, high performance, high endurance, searchlight.

  8. #128
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    What do search and rescue teams currently use? I can understand what is needed, but an emitter needs to be driven pretty hard to get the high output, which means poorer runtime.

    I'm not into thrower lights, so I don't know much about this. I would think a modified version of the super with less output(750-1000lm range) along with lower draw could yield better runtime.

    Okay, after posting this message earlier and from previous chatting...I decided to pop open the Super. When I get time; I will go to a local shop and pick up some resistors to change the low mode and do some runtime tests to see if we can get you what you are after. Not sure what output i will aim for but we can play around till we find something that works for you. I will have to get some current draw data as well. I feel like making a current draw graph too ; like I did on one other module. It shows the curve; which can come in handy.

    The resistor used in the super is 33ohm. I will get a variety like i did for the regular H/L rings. I have a lot going on right now with testing, graphs, maglite (ML25LT), etc; so I might be all over the place for a bit

    Last edited by INFRNL; 02-06-2020 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Quote Originally Posted by INFRNL View Post
    What do search and rescue teams currently use? I can understand what is needed, but an emitter needs to be driven pretty hard to get the high output, which means poorer runtime.

    I'm not into thrower lights, so I don't know much about this. I would think a modified version of the super with less output(750-1000lm range) along with lower draw could yield better runtime.

    Okay, after posting this message earlier and from previous chatting...I decided to pop open the Super. When I get time; I will go to a local shop and pick up some resistors to change the low mode and do some runtime tests to see if we can get you what you are after. Not sure what output i will aim for but we can play around till we find something that works for you. I will have to get some current draw data as well. I feel like making a current draw graph too ; like I did on one other module. It shows the curve; which can come in handy.

    The resistor used in the super is 33ohm. I will get a variety like i did for the regular H/L rings. I have a lot going on right now with testing, graphs, maglite (ML25LT), etc; so I might be all over the place for a bit

    Thank you so much! Thats incredibly kind of you to perform these experiments on my behalf.

  10. #130
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    no problem, just be patient. and you are going to get a ruler to the hand for quoting an immediate post,especially with a picture.

    on another note, we should probably continue this in the hound dog super thread; it probably fits there better..
    Last edited by INFRNL; 02-06-2020 at 09:39 PM.

  11. #131

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    I always keep 4 spare 18650 batteries in my patrol truck so I'm not too worried about runtime. If a search lasts more than 4-6 hours into the night I'm probably getting relived anyway, a person can only stand so much overtime.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  12. #132
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    When I was doing underground utility work, i was working as many OT hrs as regular hrs, i hear you about limits on OT.

    Do you get to use your own light, or do you have a surefire issue? I got a random stop in Kentucky one time and we started talking about lights. I mentioned Malkoff and Elzetta to him but he said he used the surefire issue. He had heard of Malkoff and Elzetta though.

    Although I think issued lights come with primaries, i don't know. Sounds like you get to use light of your choice.

  13. #133

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    We are issued a rechargable streamlights. They aren't bad, very simple ui and good throw.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  14. #134
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Ok folks, I got a padded envelope in the mail from Mr. White today. I sent an MD3 body, which returned with an .860 bore by 9.5mm more than the length of my 21700 cell. A single cell sized "dummy cell" spacer was included. The new bore goes nowhere the o-ring groove at the tail, and my high/low ring works just like it should. The 18650 Hound Dog now is now an MD3 body HD 21700. It's a bit more to hang onto, weight seems all but the same. It'll get put to use tonight for pup walking.

    https://i921.photobucket.com/albums/...7_163457_1.jpg

    https://i921.photobucket.com/albums/...7_163423_1.jpg
    Last edited by scout24; 02-07-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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  15. #135
    *Flashaholic* thermal guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Hell, there’s a lot of meat left. So your going to try a 5000 Mah cell?
    If i had one day left to live i would want to be at my workplace.Because every day is like a frickin eternity.

  16. #136
    Flashaholic* INFRNL's Avatar
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    I'm guessing you intentionally left it md3 because it can't be bored all the way through. Which is where the spacer comes into play.


    Okay, After seeing Scouts update, and this thread, along with some brainstorming. On something like the Super a 5000mah 21700 in MD4 config should only provide approx 35min of additional runtime. Looking at this runtime graph; you can see only a 35min gain from 2000mah 18500 to 3500mah 18650. Also going from MD4 to MD6 you only gain 35min of runtime for 18650.

    Now I am starting to see why others weren't interested. I didn't really think about it before, until now. I guess any gain is welcome, but now it doesn't make sense to dump a bunch of money in for this kind of gain, IMO. So in theory 2x 21700 5000mah should get the same results as 3x 18650...hmmm
    Last edited by INFRNL; 02-08-2020 at 12:09 AM.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Infirnl- I can see the value in a single cell application, where arguably every little bit helps. If you have the cells and time, I can mail this body to you for something more official than my seat-of-the-pants eyeball results with no instrumentation...

    Thermalguy- It's not quite snug with the cell I have, I will pick up another along the way. We'll have to see regarding diameter.
    Last edited by scout24; 02-08-2020 at 07:28 AM.
    The TK20. Yes, it still rocks- WoodsWalker

  18. #138

    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    Really glad to read all the discussion going on!

    Assuming @INFRNL is correct on the runtime of the HDS with 2x21700 and 3x18650 (I'm just trying to stay objective, since I'm not sure if we have runtime test for 2x21700), we still benefit from a shorter body (2x70 < 3x65), and a better grip (70>65).

    An MD2 with 21700 may be heavier, but I don't think by a lot, while the grip, and the runtime should improve.

    What do you think?

    Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

  19. #139
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    Default Re: 21700 Malkoff possibility

    good point. I would get both 1 and 2 cell lights.
    ****** Malkoff Devices ****** “Learn to light a candle in the darkest moments of someone’s life. Be the light that helps others see; it is what gives life its deepest significance.” ― Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

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