Upgrading Halogen Bulbs to LEDs Made by Well-known Manufacturers

Hello,

I should start by saying that I have done quite a bit of research on this topic, and I understand that fitting LED bulbs into halogen housings is a bit of a controversial topic here. So I hope you all do not mind my post.

From what I understand, LED bulbs are usually not a great choice for Halogen housings because of their differing light optics, that do not match that of an incandescent bulb. Several aftermarket LED "replacements" have been on the market for years now, making misleading claims about light output, while performing worse than stock halogen bulbs in real-life scenarios. Because of the advice provided on this forum, I have held off on purchasing any of these aftermarket bulbs.

What caught my eye, recently, is that some well-known manufacturers like Philips and Osram are entering the market. For instance, there is the Philips Xtreme-Ultinon and Osram LEDriving products which are marked to be direct, plug-and-play replacements for halogen bulbs. I am considering buying the following product for my 2017 Honda Civic: LEDriving HL H11 Gen2.

To give you some background, I happen to live in a big city in Canada and do 95% of my driving on roads that are illuminated by streetlights (here we have them on highways too). I am motivated mainly by cosmetics (I hate that the halogens make my almost-new car look so antiquated). Therefore, the actual output of the lights do not concern me so long as they perform at least as well as the OEM halogen bulbs. Beyond that, the main considerations are 1) Glare and 2) Bulb life. For the former, it appears that regardless of the light source, my projector housing will always maintain the cutoff so as not to blind oncoming traffic. Is this correct? For the latter, Osram lists the bulb life as 2500 hrs for B3 and 5000 hrs for TC, which seems unbelievably good to me. Do you think this bulb can be reasonably expected to last that long?

Lastly, I compared the Philips/Osram bulbs to one of the "bad" ones on the market (whose owner happened to do an AMA here, was promptly roasted and had his thread deleted), and am quite curious about the results.

Philips XtremeUltinon Gen 2: 22.0W -> 1350 Lumens
Osram LEDriving HL Gen 1: 18.6W -> 1390 Lumens
Osram LEDriving HL Gen 2: 15.4W -> 1215 Lumens
DD Model Name Redacted: 20.6W -> 1630 Lumens

There are some observations to make here:
1) The "bad" bulb produces more lumens than the Philips/Osram bulbs
2) The Osram bulb draws less power and produces less lumens than the others
3) The second generation of the Osram bulb actually produces LESS Lumens than the first generation

Why is it that the "good" bulbs produce less lumens? And why would Osram decide to make their second generation bulbs less powerful than the first? Given that the "bad" bulbs actually produce more lumens, could they actually be the better choice?

Thank you, I will be awaiting your advice.

CanCivic said:

Hello,

I should start by saying that I have done quite a bit of research on this topic, and I understand that fitting LED bulbs into halogen housings is a bit of a controversial topic here. So I hope you all do not mind my post.

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You should known from prior threads on this forum, and from the main sticky that these LED bulbs are not suitable for use in automotive headlighting.

From what I understand, LED bulbs are usually not a great choice for Halogen housings because of their differing light optics, that do not match that of an incandescent bulb. Several aftermarket LED "replacements" have been on the market for years now, making misleading claims about light output, while performing worse than stock halogen bulbs in real-life scenarios. Because of the advice provided on this forum, I have held off on purchasing any of these aftermarket bulbs.

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That is correct, and you made a good decision.

What caught my eye, recently, is that some well-known manufacturers like Philips and Osram are entering the market. For instance, there is the Philips Xtreme-Ultinon and Osram LEDriving products which are marked to be direct, plug-and-play replacements for halogen bulbs. I am considering buying the following product for my 2017 Honda Civic: LEDriving HL H11 Gen2.

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And it says right there on their page:

Osram's LEDriving HL H11
These products do not have ECE approval. This means they must not be used on public roads in any exterior application. Use on public roads leads to cancellation of operating license and loss of insurance coverage. Several countries do not allow sale and use of these products. Please contact your local distributor for information on the availability in your country.

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They aren't type-approved to ECE R37 nor listed in R.E.5: Light Source Specifications, and they aren't listed in 49 CFR Part 564.

Where these will find their way is the grey market (someone illegally importing or introducing these into interstate commerce in the US or Canada (who follow FMVSS 108 as "CMVSS 108", but allow ECE type-approved lighting)) or in developing nations whose laws aren't as well defined as the ECE or ours. They probably fail less hard than other brands' "LED drop-ins" but they're not safe and effective in EVERY lamp using the H11; which means it's anyone's guess what lamp it does work in. The 6000K CCT is also (almost criminally) too high to be useful and will compound glare issues.

I am motivated mainly by cosmetics (I hate that the halogens make my almost-new car look so antiquated).

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Headlamps, being regulated and required motor vehicle lighting equipment, are critical life-safety equipment, not fashion toys.

Therefore, the actual output of the lights do not concern me so long as they perform at least as well as the OEM halogen bulbs.

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They wont.

Beyond that, the main considerations are 1) Glare and 2) Bulb life. For the former, it appears that regardless of the light source, my projector housing will always maintain the cutoff so as not to blind oncoming traffic. Is this correct?

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Glare can be plentiful depending on the beam pattern generated by the incorrect combination of this bulb-shaped trinket and your lamps. And cutoff, if you'd done your research, is not the sole determinant of beam performance and glare control. If maxima are exceeded below the cutoff it can lead to direct glare depending on view angles and to excessive specular glare (from, say, a wet road).

For the latter, Osram lists the bulb life as 2500 hrs for B3 and 5000 hrs for TC, which seems unbelievably good to me. Do you think this bulb can be reasonably expected to last that long?

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Maybe, but who cares? These are not ready to replace halogen bulbs in headlamp assemblies. Long, underperforming life is long, underperforming life.

Lastly, I compared the Philips/Osram bulbs to one of the "bad" ones on the market
1) The "bad" bulb produces more lumens than the Philips/Osram bulbs
2) The Osram bulb draws less power and produces less lumens than the others
3) The second generation of the Osram bulb actually produces LESS Lumens than the first generation

Why is it that the "good" bulbs produce less lumens? And why would Osram decide to make their second generation bulbs less powerful than the first?

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Because the source lumens don't mean anything if the lamp optics can't focus on the light and distribute it properly. Osram may have made improvements to the design such that the focus was better and needed less total output to meet particular minima yet not exceed certain maxima in whatever exemplar lamp assembly they used.
Some of these toys rely an excessive output in a very bad attempt to overcome that the focus is poor and they're trying to get as much light out as possible so that people's subjective impression is that they work well. The poorest ones also use the extreme output as a selling point. In both cases, advertised lumens may be based on data about the emitters themselves which may result in losses depending on the mounting and placement and heat rejection.

Given that the "bad" bulbs actually produce more lumens, could they actually be the better choice?

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Absolutely not.

Sorry, CanCivic, but Alaric is basically 100% right. I know it's not the answer you wanted, but it's the answer you needed, because it's the answer, period. Don't fall into the "I know what I can see!" trap -- it feels that way, but it's not true. There's a giant gap between how well we think we can see, and how well we can actually see by the light from our headlamps. That's just an unfortunate fact of the human hardware, software, wiring, and "wetware".

Other points worth keeping in mind:

1. "Controversial", like most words, has a definite meaning. The question of putting LEDs in halogen lamps is not controversial here; there is no controversy.

2. Headlamps are life-safety equipment. They are not fashion toys. Absolutely nobody who sees your car in traffic cares what shade of white light your headlights put out. There are things worth caring and obsessing about, but this is not one of them. Let it go.

3. There are lots of halogen bulbs claiming to put out "whiter" light. Many of them are hyped as "performance" bulbs. All of them are a scam, no matter what brand. See here, for example.

4. There are many places on the internet where you can easily find people saying LED bulbs are great, "super white" bulbs are terrific, "HID kits" work well, "retrofits" are where it's at, etc. Within a few seconds of starting a Google search, you can find tons of reassurance that whatever mods you want to make to your lights are A-OK. None of that's true.

Why do you think it is that well-respected lighting companies would put out a product like this, if they were not sure of its efficacy?

Do you think that there will be a LED retrofit bulb in the future that will be acceptable for use in a halogen housing?

Is "SafeBeam" anything new?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_81nAVtXZI

CanCivic said:

DD Model Name Redacted: 20.6W -> 1630 Lumens

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You do realize that the guy behind those is the same guy who admitted he couldn't afford access to SAE papers and couldn't even cite the correct lumen figures for the incandescent bulbs he was developing LED replacements for? Sounds akin to putting a lot of faith in a, say, biology "professor" who couldn't afford a textbook. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ulbs!-Hello!&p=4389471&viewfull=1#post4389471

CanCivic said:

Why do you think it is that well-respected lighting companies would put out a product like this, if they were not sure of its efficacy?

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Money. They sell them and make money and feel they're too big to be challenged by regulatory authorities.
The silver lining is that some of the monies can fund future development.

CanCivic said:

Is "SafeBeam" anything new?

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So much handwaving here:

Lumileds LUXEON Altilon SMD-- LED chips specifically developed for OEM automotive front lighting
But just because they were developed for OEM front lighting does not make them a good candidate for use in aftermarket lighting. With OEM LED lighting, the emitters and their packaging are specifically accounted for in the design of the lamp.

Airflux Technology; AirCool technology
Yes, CamelCase makes marketing so much easier.

Color temperature is measured in Kelvin (K)
The higher the color temperature the whiter and cooler the light appears
But it doesn't actually mean the light is whiter (white light is white!), it only gives a subjective impression that it is, and white light with a higher color temperature is more difficult for our eyes to work with.

And who knows where they're measuring their +250%. If it's throughout the whole beam that means excessive glare.

Optimal spectrum for best road sign visibility
So, where do they list the SPD or the CRI?

Philips SafeBeam technology for glare-free driving
There's that CamelCase again.

And, the clincher: It is your own responsibility to ensure that the use of the LED retrofit lights complies with applicable local legal requirements. That, and the white disk with "ECE R37x" in red shows they know they have no type-approval and the things aren't going to work in every lamp that uses the halogen light source these are attempting to replace.

Local requirements don't matter. They aren't type-approved to ECE R37 nor listed in R.E.5: Light Source Specifications, and they aren't listed in 49 CFR Part 564. If the chief of police of Podunk, Oklahoma approves them, or if some antiquated state law just says "the bulb must emit 32 c.p." it's not going to matter. They're not legal.

CanCivic said:

Do you think that there will be a LED retrofit bulb in the future that will be acceptable for use in a halogen housing?

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Are Philips and Osram making great strides towards an actual, real, working, safe, effective LED retrofit? Certainly. But these aren't them. When they exist, they'll be listed in the apposite legal documents and their meaningless disclaimer (which doesn't absolve them of any legal culpability because they're making these things knowing they're illegal) will go away.

CanCivic said:

Why do you think it is that well-respected lighting companies would put out a product like this

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No mystery. They do it because they are in business to maximize profits and shareholder returns. It's all about the Benjamins, baby!

if they were not sure of its efficacy?

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Efficacy doesn't enter this equation, and there's nothing they're "not sure" about.

Do you think that there will be a LED retrofit bulb in the future that will be acceptable for use in a halogen housing?

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Yes. There are technical committees working on laying the groundwork for them, both in North America and in Europe and Asia. But it's going to be awhile, because there are technological hurdles that will have to be overcome; it's not just a matter of waiting for a lawbook to be updated.

Is "SafeBeam" anything new?

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It's the result of applying the latest PromoTech™ with newly refined AdSpeak™ technology. In other words: no. It's handwaving and marketing babble.

Again, I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble; I know how tempting it is to believe.

give it 10 , 15 years, and cars will have standard led headlights, accord already has standard led low beams for all model, only higher end trim has led high beams as well, corolla has standart led headlights too, pretty much every new car above 50k has led headlights, those led hid kits will become pointless soon, just as aftermarket audio units became, only market left for them are old cars , and very high end systems. market for aftermarket radios\alarms is fraction of what it was 15 years, same will happen to led\hid kit market.

alpg88 said:

give it 10 , 15 years, and cars will have standard led headlights, accord already has standard led low beams for all model, only higher end trim has led high beams as well, corolla has standart led headlights too, pretty much every new car above 50k has led headlights, those led hid kits will become pointless soon, just as aftermarket audio units became, only market left for them are old cars , and very high end systems. market for aftermarket radios\alarms is fraction of what it was 15 years, same will happen to led\hid kit market.

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They well might, but in 10 to 15 years there will be plenty of cars on the road using the user-replaceable light sources that exist today. Halogen headlamps using the HB4/HB3 combination, HB2, H11 and H9 bulbs and so on are still going to be on the shelves because in 15 years people who took good care of their '19 Toyota Tacoma are still going to need an HB2 when one burns out. Maybe by then, the aftermarket will have the legitimate LED retrofits we're all champing at the bit to have.

Well, I guess I will hold off on the OSRAM bulbs for now. Thank your for the advice, it is greatly appreciated.

One thought, do you think that the aftermarket "bad bulbs" are starting to improve, and will eventually meet the standards? Attached is an interesting picture (with company name removed), that makes it seem like some of these aftermarket LED producers are investing in the necessary equipment to try and meet the standards. As I understand it, none of the automotive authorities certify or approve a product. The onus is on the manufacturer to determine themselves if the bulb meets the applicable standards. How likely is it for one of these bulbs to actually meet the standards, if the necessary equipment and procedures were to be utilized?

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Another "reputable brand" LED bulb that I found: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/h11-sylvania-zevo-led-headlight-bulbs-2-pk-0202693p.html
These make no mention of not meeting the regulations / off-road use, but they are stamped with "For sale in Canada only". So did these bulbs meet the Transport Canada standards? As you know, in Canada we do not follow CFR/ECE regs.

Alaric Darconville said:

They well might, but in 10 to 15 years there will be plenty of cars on the road using the user-replaceable light sources that exist today. Halogen headlamps using the HB4/HB3 combination, HB2, H11 and H9 bulbs and so on are still going to be on the shelves because in 15 years people who took good care of their '19 Toyota Tacoma are still going to need an HB2 when one burns out. Maybe by then, the aftermarket will have the legitimate LED retrofits we're all champing at the bit to have.

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amount of 15 years old cars i see in my shop today is very small, they are at the junkyard a lot sooner, the way it cost to fix modern cars, and how complex they are, i suspect in 15 years that number will be a even lower, sure some cars will be around, but not enough to warrant farther development by serious companies, cheap overseas junk will keep coming, but customers base will shrink a lot, i saw it happen with audio\alarm industry, same will happen to lights. no reason to think otherwise based on real world experience.

CanCivic said:

Another "reputable brand" LED bulb that I found: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/h11-sylvania-zevo-led-headlight-bulbs-2-pk-0202693p.html
These make no mention of not meeting the regulations / off-road use, but they are stamped with "For sale in Canada only". So did these bulbs meet the Transport Canada standards? As you know, in Canada we do not follow CFR/ECE regs.

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Maybe the Canadian regs are less strict, or they don't want to deal with any customs enforcement hassles trying to export this product to the USA. It's also a demand by the manufacturer, which has no force of law (it could possibly set the authorized seller up for breach-of-contract or something).

Canada has TSD 108, which is very much like FMVSS 108.

Most automotive LED headlight bulbs are terrible - built to a price point and maximum perceived brightness, typically performing badly in the moment (glare absolutely everywhere) and over time (bad thermals kill solid state electronics). Some of them are engineered to approximate the filament bulbs they're replacing as best as current methods allow as well as survive the harsh environment of automotive electrical systems and engine bays - and as such these are not cheap specimens. But none of them can slot into a type-compatible halogen headlamp assembly and pass FMVSS nor ECE testing regimens.

Someday improving thermal ruggedness and power limits might allow "filament" LEDs to replicate halogen filaments with sufficient accuracy to serve as drop-in replacements. I'm not gambling on that possibility, however.

CanCivic said:

Well, I guess I will hold off on the OSRAM bulbs for now. Thank your for the advice, it is greatly appreciated.

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Good decision! We're glad to have helped.

One thought, do you think that the aftermarket "bad bulbs" are starting to improve, and will eventually meet the standards?

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From the most reputable makers, surely. The primary goal should be to emulate the radiation pattern of a bare halogen bulb to ensure it works correctly in every lamp. That's the biggest problem with the existing retrofits-- it might work in just the one lamp they developed it for and have unpredictable results elsewhere.

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You can host the image in your own webspace, or get a supporter subscription and upload attachments.

The results and any potential improvement might have worked out for that 2015 Ford F-150, but what happens if they put it in a 2015 Lexus CT200h?

CanCivic said:

These make no mention of not meeting the regulations / off-road use, but they are stamped with "For sale in Canada only". So did these bulbs meet the Transport Canada standards? As you know, in Canada we do not follow CFR/ECE regs.

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No, they don't meet Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. These are the same bulb sold in the US in packaging stating "For fog lamp use only". The difference is that US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards apply to original *and* replacement equipment, while Canada's standards apply only to original equipment; the aftermarket is federally unregulated in Canada. It doesn't mean the bulbs are OK (or safe, or good, or good enough, or safe enough), it means Canadian law has different gaps, shaped and sized differently, compared to the gaps in US law.

Also, Canada does accept headlamps and headlight bulbs that comply with UN Regulations (formerly called "ECE") on an equal basis with headlamps and headlight bulbs that comply with US regs.

I guess I will hold off on the OSRAM bulbs for now

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That's a wise and thoughtful decision...as long as you also apply it to all the rest of the brands of "LED bulbs", too. The problem isn't this brand or that brand, or this bulb or that bulb...the problem is with the concept, for the time being.

One thought, do you think that the aftermarket "bad bulbs" are starting to improve, and will eventually meet the standards?

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Legitimate makers will eventually offer legitimate LED retrofit bulbs, yes. Not soon, though.

Attached is an interesting picture (with company name removed), that makes it seem like some of these aftermarket LED producers are investing in the necessary equipment to try and meet the standards.

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In the first place, the standards don't exist yet. See post #7 up above; they're being worked on. Until technical standards for LED retrofit bulbs exist, it's going to continue to be this onesie-twosie, nudge/wink kind of Mickey Mouse approach where they find a specific headlamp and claim (maybe with proof, but usually without) that their "LED bulb" provides a compliant beam pattern. Of course, there's no way to restrict what buyers actually put the bulbs in, so they'll wind up in every lamp that takes whatever kind of bulb it is (H11, etc).

Also, photographs don't come anywhere close to being adequate or capable in a discussion like this, because the dynamic range is very much narrower than that of the human visual system. In plain English: it's very easy to make a photo make almost any headlight beam look as good as you want, and even if you try your best to make it accurate, it's basically impossible to make a photo that accurately and usefully conveys much of any real information about the quality of the beam. To make it even simpler: photos can show how bad a beam is, but it's much more difficult, practically impossible, for them to show how good a beam is. Pretty good explanation by Dan Stern here, if you want more detail. I'm familiar with that company and those "LED bulbs" they offer, and while they do seem to go to greater effort than most, the photos and line diagrams they provide are not good enough. We'd need to see real isocandela or isolux wall plots and pointwise compliance tables. Neither of which are difficult to provide...do it in-house if they have a goniophotometer, or send the lamp, the bulb, and like $350 to a test lab. So, you have to ask why they don't provide the only info that would definitively back up their claims.

I have a 94 Astro that I was thinking of converting to LED headlights..... But first thought it a good idea to pop-in here for a read.

Thank you for the information. No LED headlights for my Astro. lovecpf

Chauncey Gardiner said:

I have a 94 Astro that I was thinking of converting to LED headlights..... But first thought it a good idea to pop-in here for a read.

Thank you for the information. No LED headlights for my Astro. lovecpf

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Your Astro uses 5x7 sealed beam lamps so this thread about halogen "replacement" LED "bulbs" doesn't really apply. Why not install the Truck-Lite or JW Speaker LEDs?

Mr. Merk said:

Your Astro uses 5x7 sealed beam lamps so this thread about halogen "replacement" LED "bulbs" doesn't really apply.

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Good catch, Mr. Merk!

Chauncey,

If you're serious about keeping that van a while and have a reasonable belief that it will stick around (frame not rotting, cooling system cared for, frequent fluid changes and the like) then JW Speaker and Truck-Lite have some options for you.

If you're on the coastal side of the Cascades, then maybe ones with heated lenses aren't as necessary as the inland side of the Cascades. They are a bit pricey at $317.38 each (an $85.01 premium over the unheated one).

Alaric Darconville said:

Good catch, Mr. Merk!

Chauncey,

If you're serious about keeping that van a while and have a reasonable belief that it will stick around (frame not rotting, cooling system cared for, frequent fluid changes and the like) then JW Speaker and Truck-Lite have some options for you.

If you're on the coastal side of the Cascades, then maybe ones with heated lenses aren't as necessary as the inland side of the Cascades. They are a bit pricey at $317.38 each (an $85.01 premium over the unheated one).

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Dang they actually have heated lenses now? I don't believe they did when I bought mine. I haven't noticed that to be a downside however, although we don't get a lot of snow here. I do remember years (decades?) ago one long trip where I kept having to pull over to clean the halogen headlights in my old Scirocco because they kept getting dimmer and dimmer as the slush built up on them.