Rechargeable 123s, the next step.

As some of you know, the chargers did not charge to a level that gave satisfactory use for most on this forum.

The manufacturer requested a flashlight, I sent them one. I will send another one fairly soon. Perhaps this will make it easier for them to see what we want and to allow input from them.

As you probably already know, I invited them into this forum to take a look at who we are and to see the comments on the batteries and chargers.

I was thinking of asking them to set these to charge to 4.2volts Is this to high? If we asked for 4.0 there would be less runtime but maybe a safer and longer lived battery. What do you guys think?

I am going to ask the maker to come see us in here again. Are there any comments or questions for them that have yet to be asked?

when you say level of charge, do you mean voltage? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks Roth...Yes, that is what I meant. See, I need you guys if I am to get this done correctly.

I would not run the final voltage above 4.2 volts per cell.
That ending voltage gives about 500 charge discharge cycles.
As to the light issue I belive that with the sandwich shop converters that voltage is not out of line. I myself would like to see at least a charger that would handle at least 2 cells I would prefer 4 though. This version of the NEW VIP light comming out from MR. BULK will not handle these cells.
That doesn't worry me I have 123's for it. But for existing light fixtures we can allways change the converters to make them work. But jon will these new cells have overcharge and overdischarge protection built into the cells or will we have to build these circuits ourselfs.

3volts would be perfect, as it could be used with common and popular lights, like the arc ls, and possibly even l4?

how would decreasing the voltage help the capacity?

if they could be made to be 3volts, that would be great (unless theres more to it than i know...)

=edit= doh, thought you were talking about the batteries themselves /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif

Cell chemistry is what it is but flashlights are designed. Arc4s work with the R123s and there are quite a few of them around.

E1 with a KL1 is another match for this cell. An R123 and a dummy cell should work for some of the other two cell regulated lights.

I have a couple CNC 123s bodies and some TWOKs I need to dig out and see how the R123s work in direct drive mode. A one cell R123 direct drive LUXIII light sounds like a viable product somebody should be interested in marketing.

Edit:
One problem is that it is up to the user to stop using the cell before it drains too low. Protective circuitry would be nice.

Jon,

Several beta testers, including myself, have modded the charger to around 4.2v and not posted any problems. I've cycled my test cells about 12 times without any measurable loss of capacity. Everything I've read about this battery chemistry mentions the 4.2v charge limit.

Have any beta testers experienced problems at a 4.2v charge level?

Steve

The protection circuit is sometihng to work towards...unless the future is the protection being in the light. Does the ARC4 pave the way for the protection being in the lights? And other lights will have to follow that path?

Hello Jon,

I believe 4.2 volts max is a good setting to ask for.

It sure would be nice if the cells had some protection. There is no protection at the charger and the ARC 4+ does offer some protection, but I am not sure how it would handle a shorted cell. I also do not think the ARC 4+ has any low voltage protection at all.

Overall I think our testing has shown that these cells can work in some of our lights. We need charging voltage raised to 4.2 volts and cell protection including over voltage, under voltage, and thermal. It would be nice to have the "advertised" double cell chargers if each channel was independent. We still have to be careful what lights we use these batteries in and should limit the suggested market to single cell lights. I have used multiple cells in lights, but with no low voltage cut off, there is some risk of damaging the cells.

Of course, added capacity would also be fine with all of us...

Tom

The charging voltage should be whatever it takes to get the full capacity of the cell. In this case, the chargers should charge to 4.2V because of the battery chemistry. There is no sense in paying for a battery that only gets charged to a fraction of its capacity.

If the manufacturer could find a battery chemistry that gave full capacity at 3.0V, that would be even better. These batteries as they are now should only be used in robust circuits, like in the Arc4. Those concerned with overvoltage will find little use for these cells, though, depending on the circumstances, a resistor could be used to pull down the voltage.

I still think the manufacturer should include a switch that allows the user to select between 4.2V and some other voltage, like 3.6V. Even better would be a multi-turn potentiometer that goes from 3.0V to 4.2V.

But if they insist on one voltage, make it 4.2V so we can take full advantage of the batteries.


BTW, I modded my charger to 4.2v (actually 4.15V) and the batteries charged fine. I do not at this moment have any 123 lights, but I'll be getting an Arc4 when the new batch comes out. Anyway, this was the very first time I'd ever tried soldering. I can't believe I was successful. It was quite an ordeal, but it was fun.

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Jon,

I believe 4.2 volts max is a good setting to ask for.

It sure would be nice if the cells had some protection. There is no protection at the charger and the ARC 4+ does offer some protection, but I am not sure how it would handle a shorted cell. I also do not think the ARC 4+ has any low voltage protection at all.

Overall I think our testing has shown that these cells can work in some of our lights. We need charging voltage raised to 4.2 volts and cell protection including over voltage, under voltage, and thermal. Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom, a shorted cell would cause the terminal voltage to drop and the light would automatically reduce current consumption or shut off. And yes, the Arc4 does have lithium ion/polymer low voltage protection. The lithium ion cell is cutout at ~3 volts as the mfg specifies. Finally, if the cell got very hot, the temp sensor in the Arc4 would detect the rise in case heat above 55c and reduce consumption.

Adding more circuitry inside the cell package is fine if you must but it would decrease it's Ah capacity for a given package.

Thank you Jon for researching these cells!

Peter

Hello Peter,

Thanks for the clarification.

It does indeed look like these cells and the ARC 4+ are made for each other.

Tom

springnr: deep discharge protection by the user just does not work in everday life.
srue: the manufacturers will not find a chemistry for a 3V cell. As switching power supplies are no big deal nowadays, voltage is one of the least important parameters. Newer Lithium cells will have a slightly higher voltage. For getting the highest efficiency, a wide input voltage is necessary. Flashlights with just an incandescent bulbs and batteries are more than obsolete now (which should not keep us away from them .-)
And chargers for more than one battery/cell will always have independent slots. There is no other safe way for charging LiIon cells.
There is also another point: The maximum load is different for the various brands of LiIon cells. Some of them, when loaded with 1C, waste ~15% of their energy as heat in the cell.

And the Arc4's design with using the cell a little bit as a heat sink (as much as I understood it) works also in the other way: as a overtemp protection for the cell.

JSB... has the manufacturer indicated that they have been here (CPF) and viewed the comments posted by your "testers"?

The manufacturer has looked but has not posted. I will let them play with the light for a bit.

I will also let this thread grow a bit and invite them back to take a look. I want them to see that we are serious users really intereted in getting this our way.

They need to know that there is a market out here for flashlight batteries of this type. When I first talked to them long ago, they were not aware that 123 lights existed.

Jon: BTW, do they give a maximum current for these cells?
The 'usual' LiIon in this size I know are rated for 600mAh, (this ones here 650mAh).
Several of these flashlights need more than 1A, some even 2A. As I wrote before, some cells have quite high internal losses and get hot at higher loads.
Probably no problem with an Arc4+, as this one should not take more than 0.8A (from a well charged cell).

4.2V MAX. To allow for tolerances in parts perhaps say 3.95V set voltage with +/-0.05V circuit tolerance.

As a side note, I have to voice disappointment over the lack of knowledge this manufacturer has with the cells they build chargers for. They build battery chargers, so what sense is there in asking for a flashlight? They need to do their homework on the cells they are selling chargers to charge. It's the cells that's important (to them), not a flashlight or any other application. Only half charging a cell has no excuses. Fumbling around forums for the answers only makes them look more incompetent. They should seek the battery manufacturer's data. I hope everybody that buy's these checks the voltage carefully. I have no faith they know what they're doing based on what they have provided so far and the questions they are asking.

Jon, you should ask for a discounted price from the manufacturer for telling them how to suck eggs.

Chris

Hello,

Where are you guys getting these cells anyway and how
much are they? I'd like to take a look at the specs
on these cells.

I had designed a Li-ion charger for a different type
of cell and it was made to cut out at 4.2v too, with
an adjustable pot to set it precisely. Current limit
was 1 amp.

Take care,
Al

Hello Al,

Jon Burly got a sample of these cells and chargers and a group of us are trying them out.

If you check out the "Li-Ion Rechargeable 123 Review thread" you can find out more about them.

Tom

The chargers and Cells are comming from the same people. I actually suspect what has happened is they were concerned that the these batteries fully charged would be too much for some devices. If this is the case they may be right, two of these batteries makes the Incan 6 volt bulbs I have tried. Perhaps they want to see the lights in order to determine if fully charged batteries damage them.