Looking to run a bulletproof C2 setup with a li-ion cell. Probably will end up with malkoff, so no LVP. Obviously, then, a protected cell would be desirable but how much does the cell protection circuit impact reliability? FWIW I'm looking at the 16650 keeppower vs the plain Sanyo UR16650ZTA.
Protected or not?
- Thread starter Buck91
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archimedes
Flashaholic
Reliability ? A lot.
It's a whole another circuit.
It's a whole another circuit.
JaguarDave-in-Oz
Enlightened
I used to think the sun shone out of the backside of protected cells, been using them since 2009. I used them in almost all my torches - until an incident last weekend.
A while back I purchased a couple of the Jetbeam RRT-01 2019 torches. Each came with a proprietary 16340 rechargeable cell. They were the type of cell that have an onboard USB charging port.
I have always used good quality AW cells (the orginal black ones) and a good charger but decided I'd try one of those factory supplied cells. I stuck one in my HDS rotary and all was well for half a day until I noticed the suddenly torch getting quite hot in my (shirt) pocket.
On pulling out the torch I could see it was not switched on but thought that maybe somehow it had switched itself on and depleted the battery enough to then switch off so I opened the torch and removed the battery.
The battery seemed very hot. So hot that if I licked my finger and dabbed quickly on the positive terminal (which is actually part of the protection circuit system) I could hear a sizzle and felt a sting on my finger. That positive terminal was VERY hot despite the cell no longer being in the torch.
I put the cell on my concrete workshop entry floor and went inside to get my multi-meter (fluke). By the time I got back to the cell, the wet finger test still resulted in a sizzle and the voltage measured 3.6v
I decided to stick the cell in a bucket of sand and see what happened.
Three minutes later I got impatient and retrieved the cell from the sand and noticed the positive button was still so hot it would still do the sizzle of the wet finger. It was at this juncture I decided to remove the protection circuitry from the torch.
On removing thhe outer wrapper, I found the cell itself under the jetbeam wrapper to be an INR16300A65 with a quarter inch combined charging/protection device strapped to its positive end. Once the protection device was removed the positive button on the cell itself was cool to the touch and exhibited no odd behaviour.
On the protection board (which has the USB socket soldered to it) I discovered some black burn marking on one of the charge status LED's but not much else.
I'm certainly a bit less trustful of the reliability of protection circuits now.
A while back I purchased a couple of the Jetbeam RRT-01 2019 torches. Each came with a proprietary 16340 rechargeable cell. They were the type of cell that have an onboard USB charging port.
I have always used good quality AW cells (the orginal black ones) and a good charger but decided I'd try one of those factory supplied cells. I stuck one in my HDS rotary and all was well for half a day until I noticed the suddenly torch getting quite hot in my (shirt) pocket.
On pulling out the torch I could see it was not switched on but thought that maybe somehow it had switched itself on and depleted the battery enough to then switch off so I opened the torch and removed the battery.
The battery seemed very hot. So hot that if I licked my finger and dabbed quickly on the positive terminal (which is actually part of the protection circuit system) I could hear a sizzle and felt a sting on my finger. That positive terminal was VERY hot despite the cell no longer being in the torch.
I put the cell on my concrete workshop entry floor and went inside to get my multi-meter (fluke). By the time I got back to the cell, the wet finger test still resulted in a sizzle and the voltage measured 3.6v
I decided to stick the cell in a bucket of sand and see what happened.
Three minutes later I got impatient and retrieved the cell from the sand and noticed the positive button was still so hot it would still do the sizzle of the wet finger. It was at this juncture I decided to remove the protection circuitry from the torch.
On removing thhe outer wrapper, I found the cell itself under the jetbeam wrapper to be an INR16300A65 with a quarter inch combined charging/protection device strapped to its positive end. Once the protection device was removed the positive button on the cell itself was cool to the touch and exhibited no odd behaviour.
On the protection board (which has the USB socket soldered to it) I discovered some black burn marking on one of the charge status LED's but not much else.
I'm certainly a bit less trustful of the reliability of protection circuits now.
peter yetman
Flashlight Enthusiast
I really don't like them. Apart from being left in the dark when the protection kicks in, I've also had trouble with failed PCBs.
P
P
WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
Yeah, IMO they only add another thing to go wrong. I suppose they may be a net benefit to people that would otherwise be very foolish. But for 99% of us, there's no point.
peter yetman
Flashlight Enthusiast
Also, from what I read, IMR (unprotected) chemistry is inherently safer than ICR (protected). Presumably that's one of the reasons they put the protection in place.
P
P
Good words, I agree, this is only for those who do not monitor the battery voltage or for those lights that can unnoticed by us suck life out of an unprotected battery.
upd.
For SF C2 better protected 16650, unprotected he will suck to their death, if C2 with incandescent lamp. Protected Eagletac 16650 work well.
upd.
For SF C2 better protected 16650, unprotected he will suck to their death, if C2 with incandescent lamp. Protected Eagletac 16650 work well.
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ven
Flashaholic
I use both naked sanyo and keeppower flavours. So far no issue with either at all, generally i prefer naked ones. What i have done is in work use the keeppowers(easier to charge being 4.2v and button top, saves messing with any magnet etc for contact). Home i have the naked and can charge to 4.35v , these i run in my standard surefire bodies.
ChrisGarrett
Flashlight Enthusiast
For me, 'birthday suits' for the win.
Chris
Chris
RetroTechie
Flashlight Enthusiast
If you run Li-ion batteries in series, and light does not have a facility to cut of when any individual cell voltage drops too low,
OR there's little confidence in the light's electronics (say, a cheapy where driver or LED is poorly cooled)
then it's probably safer to use protected Li-ions.
Outside of that: naked cells for me. No extra point of failure, lower self-discharge, cheaper, higher performance. And less chance of something going wrong when a battery is dropped or its wrapper gets damaged. Sure even a quality light's electronics may fail & short circuit a battery. But I suspect there's lower chance of that happening than a (cheap) protection pcb on a battery failing. Not to mention batteries spend the bulk of their time in storage. While sitting there, protection pcb can still fail at random point in time since it's always-on. Naked cells don't have that issue.
Since practically all lights I have are single-cell lights, the dangers of running in series is a non-issue and protected cells have little added value (if any :thinking: ). And even if I'd buy a multi-18650 light, most likely I'd go for one that runs those in parallel.
OR there's little confidence in the light's electronics (say, a cheapy where driver or LED is poorly cooled)
then it's probably safer to use protected Li-ions.
Outside of that: naked cells for me. No extra point of failure, lower self-discharge, cheaper, higher performance. And less chance of something going wrong when a battery is dropped or its wrapper gets damaged. Sure even a quality light's electronics may fail & short circuit a battery. But I suspect there's lower chance of that happening than a (cheap) protection pcb on a battery failing. Not to mention batteries spend the bulk of their time in storage. While sitting there, protection pcb can still fail at random point in time since it's always-on. Naked cells don't have that issue.
Since practically all lights I have are single-cell lights, the dangers of running in series is a non-issue and protected cells have little added value (if any :thinking: ). And even if I'd buy a multi-18650 light, most likely I'd go for one that runs those in parallel.
